flyback puse analogous to capacitor?

Ole,

What dynamic of a capacitor if any could be considered analogous to a
flyback pulse in a coil?

Being a capacitor stores rather than moves charge perhaps there is no
analogy.

How does charge migrate in an asymmetric capacitor, one with a large
differential of size in the two plates, it seems this would create some
type of electrostatic motion or rather stress as the two different sized
conductors try to equalize charge?

Could be what induces the force of gravity the stress between plates
(planets/stars) creating a torsional stress never to equalize charge as
long as energy is being sourced from a star.

Back to Norm's what is heat, if the star is sourcing positive ions as it
is radiating heat...

Hi Mick,

As the capacitor is the exact opposite of an inductor the part which is the flyback voltage in the inductor can be considered as current in the capacitor. The capacitor gives back a current kick where the inductor gives a voltage kick. The kick back form an inductor happens when opening the circuit as the energy is stored as a magnetic field which is charges on the move. This induces a voltage when opening the circuit as the inductor works like a constant current generator in just that instant. I.e. the current can't just stop immediately by opening the circuit as the current is continuous meaning its value can't just make a jump. Consider this like inertia in a mechanical device or energy preservation. The capacitor has the tension (voltage) continuous and thus has to make the jump in current instead. This happens when the circuit is closed which is exactly opposite to the inductor.

Connecting a capacitor and a n inductor in a closed circuit while energy is stored in at least one of them will make them oscillate forever if there is no resistance involved. This is only achieved with ideal components as real components have resistance because of the metal conductors they are made of. The oscillating frequency is the resonant frequency of the circuit given by their capacitance and inductance values.

The conclusion is that the magnetic field is stored when the current is running (closed circuit) and the electric field is stored when no current is flowing (open circuit).

"How does charge migrate in an asymmetric capacitor, one with a large
 differential of size in the two plates, it seems this would create some
 type of electrostatic motion or rather stress as the two different sized
 conductors try to equalize charge?"

Treat this like a micro strip transmission line of variable width. Ivor Catt treats capacitors as transmission lines and has the same point of view as Wilbert B. Smith that the charges can't be stopped. Smith thinks that the electrons die (dissolves) if stopping them as a smoke ring will die if stopped moving. By treating capacitors like transmission lines there is no need for Maxwell's displacement current. The charges just have to always be on the move. When charges are moving they create the motional electric field (William J. Hooper) that can't be shielded and act like gravity and perhaps are exactly the same thing. Or gravity is the induced motional electric field. Read Smith and Hooper for the theory or study the theory of rhythmodynamics. Moving charges also induces magnetism thus the electric part can't really be separated from the magnetic part as well as the moving part. All three components make up electromagnetism and the parts can't be separated but the magnetic fields can cancel as well as the motional parts. For canceling the electric field positive charge carriers (positrons) would be needed. But when meeting electrons the positrons and electrons will annihilate each other. Using the smoke ring analogy the smoke rings will break up when meeting as their spins annihilate each other. Two smoke rings of the same type can combine. I.e. electrons or positrons combining to other elementary particles like three electrons becoming a quark.

For more on the fundamental forces see the Rhythmodynamics theory. All is waves. Even what we perceive as particles can be described as waves according to that theory.

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :

 Ole,
 
 What dynamic of a capacitor if any could be considered analogous to a
 flyback pulse in a coil?
 
 Being a capacitor stores rather than moves charge perhaps there is no
 analogy.
 
 How does charge migrate in an asymmetric capacitor, one with a large
 differential of size in the two plates, it seems this would create some
 type of electrostatic motion or rather stress as the two different sized
 conductors try to equalize charge?
 
 Could be what induces the force of gravity the stress between plates
 (planets/stars) creating a torsional stress never to equalize charge as
 long as energy is being sourced from a star.
 
 Back to Norm's what is heat, if the star is sourcing positive ions as it
 is radiating heat...

Hi Mick and Ole
Interesting! 
Yes so cap is opposite to coil in current moves oin cap while voltage moves in coil....
Are the "functions of wben" also opposite?
Such as switch opening in coil creates backwards in direction voltages spike nstantly, while with a cap it s the switch closure that creates the "trying to be instamt" current flow as cap.fills up...
However, is there an amzlgous-to-flyback instantaneous current backflow "within" the cspacitor upon filling, or is this upon discharge, e both?
Could this be described as inherent back emf?
So maybe this analgous-to-flyback back current flow in cap will (also?)manifest during discharge to a load and the discharge switch closes?
I have been taught and told a cap fills up in one direction but discharges in opposite direction but this makes no sense in real life since you must hook pos to pos neg to neg when filling up and discharging cap to let's say battery both fills and another is load. Or to fill cap N with cap A you better habe pos on pos amd.neg on neg
Maybe this cap discharge of backward flow is that moment where a cap is filled to over-voltage level and it discharges on its own in explosive effect?  I guess this discharge would be.imto the air more or less ..
Also I noticed that a cap into inductor discharge also follows the rule of pos.on pos neg to neg since if you want current flow same as it was with batteruy, you will need to hook cap up same  polarity as bsttery...
So I don't know as usual just what works what doesn't but the opposite function and analogy of coil and flyback spike to cap and instant backwards current flow is very interesting
...maybe this is,  or is confused with inherent back emf?  I know half.thr world calls flyback spike back emf as a bit of confusion also maybe it is because what pushes that spike into "action" is the inherent back emf forces within the coil...the capacitance of the coil doing it so this source of confusion...now bring up TIME and when exactly things happen in each example, cap or coil and now is the.time function also  ";opposite"?
Kone

Ole,
Excellent data as always, thank you!

Kone,
I am of the somewhat unpopular school of thought in that during a
flyback pulse from an inductor time is inverted and negatricity sourced,
similar to the phase conjugant mirror sourcing laser light after it has
been charged up by the incident source.   Interesting that the PCM is
made of optical grade capacitor material that is also piezoelectric so
closer metaphor to a cap than coil.
I also think the earth return strike or Norms neutral spike is a
negative time waveform similar to a mirror wave across a boundary where
the polarization is also reversed.
My original question to Ole was based on attempting to conceptualize
retaining the neg time component through a cap rather than the cap
reversing the time flip back to positive time/ electricity as is normal
operating response.  So in other words if one desires to create a
flowing or longer form of negatricity rather that the single flyback
pulse how would this be accomplished...  If one can create a feedback or
feedforward circuit that is predominantly negatricity in a chase
tail/head mode this should open all sorts of rabbit or wormholes.  With
a bipolar flyback pulse pair that is time scewed I think this is
possible but it will require bench testing.
Also think about using PNP transistors for amplifying this negatricity
stream.

Had a friend working on star wars SDI in the 80's.  He said one of the
designs is a magnetoelectric pulse former with two giant magnets
exploded apart in space that come back together as their field strength
is stronger than the gravity so they can be reused.  The collapsing mag
field of them being blown apart with a small tactical nuke is focused
along with the gamma pulse through some kind of beamformer.  i don't
know if it ever became operational but is an interesting lens into the
thinking behind advanced field systems.  I imagine this to be a long
tube with magnets on the outside so a kind of oversized magneto.  I also
imagine that SDI was not just to protect us from the Soviets based on
Regans multiple instances of mentioning alien invasions.  A homemade
earthbound version without the nuke might be fun to try.  How fast could
a paintball gun accelerate a magnet down the center of an inductor?  :)


On 8/20/2018 4:17 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>  
>
> Hi Kone,
>
> By studying the four quadrants of the power circle it is easy to
> determine which way the energy works on a component. The power can be
> defined as either positive or negative when entering the component.
> When energy enters a component that component is a sink. If power
> entering the component is defined as positive that component is a sink
> in quadrants 1 and 3. The component is also said to be motoring. If
> power exiting the component is defined as positive the component is
> considered a source even though this is still quadrants 1 and 3 when
> using this second definition. The component is thus said to be
> generating. Which model to use depends on how the wires of the power
> meter (Watt meter) are connected. Switching around either the current
> leads or the voltage leads shifts between the two models. I.e. the
> opposite direction of energy flow (power) is defined as positive.
>
> The first definition has sinks in quadrants 1 & 3 and sources in
> quadrants 2 & 4:
> Four quadrants operation characteristics of a DC machine 
> The source of this figure:
> https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Four-quadrants-operation-characteristics-of-a-DC-machine_fig3_324973158
>
> The second definition has sinks in quadrants 2 & 4 and sources in
> quadrant 1 & 3:
> Four quadrant operation from a Kepco BOP power supply.
> The source of this figure: http://www.kepcopower.com/hdbfig09.htm
>
> With an oscilloscope with multiply function hooked up as a power meter
> and by using one of the above definitions it is easy to study the
> power entering and exiting a component. It can also be calculated by
> using mathematical models. If studying the capacitor and inductor
> (coil) this way it is easy to see what is going on and how both of
> these components are reactive components absorbing (sinking) and
> giving back (sourcing) energy. Using the same method on non-reactive
> components like lamps or resistors it will show only energy going into
> such components (sinks). A motor is also a generator when energy is
> exiting that motor. By experimenting with capacitors and inductors it
> can be shown that they are the exact opposites of each other which is
> why they start oscillating when connected together while storing energy.
>
> Regards
> Ole
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---In [email protected], <konehead@...> wrote :
>
> Hi Mick and Ole
> Interesting!
> Yes so cap is opposite to coil in current moves oin cap while voltage
> moves in coil....
> Are the "functions of wben" also opposite?
> Such as switch opening in coil creates backwards in direction voltages
> spike nstantly, while with a cap it s the switch closure that creates
> the "trying to be instamt" current flow as cap.fills up...
> However, is there an amzlgous-to-flyback instantaneous current
> backflow "within" the cspacitor upon filling, or is this upon
> discharge, e both?
> Could this be described as inherent back emf?
> So maybe this analgous-to-flyback back current flow in cap will
> (also?)manifest during discharge to a load and the discharge switch
> closes?
> I have been taught and told a cap fills up in one direction but
> discharges in opposite direction but this makes no sense in real life
> since you must hook pos to pos neg to neg when filling up and
> discharging cap to let's say battery both fills and another is load.
> Or to fill cap N with cap A you better habe pos on pos amd.neg on neg
> Maybe this cap discharge of backward flow is that moment where a cap
> is filled to over-voltage level and it discharges on its own in
> explosive effect? I guess this discharge would be.imto the air more or
> less ..
> Also I noticed that a cap into inductor discharge also follows the
> rule of pos.on pos neg to neg since if you want current flow same as
> it was with batteruy, you will need to hook cap up same polarity as
> bsttery...
> So I don't know as usual just what works what doesn't but the opposite
> function and analogy of coil and flyback spike to cap and instant
> backwards current flow is very interesting
> ....maybe this is, or is confused with inherent back emf? I know
> half.thr world calls flyback spike back emf as a bit of confusion also
> maybe it is because what pushes that spike into "action" is the
> inherent back emf forces within the coil...the capacitance of the coil
> doing it so this source of confusion...now bring up TIME and when
> exactly things happen in each example, cap or coil and now is the.time
> function also ";opposite"?
> Kone
>

Hi Ole
The sink or source power quadrants I look at as sort of flat scale but with flyback it happens at border line between sink and source perhaps you could say, and it shoots out "sideways" either at you or away from you, and in my brain it shoots both at you and away from you at same time "flash" too for near twice the speed of light (perhaps you could say)
So I think Mick and I are asking the same question (sort of) and what would be the analogy of the flyback spike in coil  to whatever the opposite would be.in a capacitor.
All I can think of is the immediate inherent back emf force in electrical flow that resists the movement....but perhaps upon discharge of cap there is something else not looked at so much since it stays within the walls of the capacitor does not do damage like flyback spike....(I don't know just thinking)
Kone

Hi Kone,

By studying the four quadrants of the power circle it is easy to determine which way the energy works on a component. The power can be defined as either positive or negative when entering the component. When energy enters a component that component is a sink. If power entering the component is defined as positive that component is a sink in quadrants 1 and 3. The component is also said to be motoring. If power exiting the component is defined as positive the component is considered a source even though this is still quadrants 1 and 3 when using this second definition. The component is thus said to be generating. Which model to use depends on how the wires of the power meter (Watt meter) are connected. Switching around either the current leads or the voltage leads shifts between the two models. I.e. the opposite direction of energy flow (power) is defined as positive.

The first definition has sinks in quadrants 1 & 3 and sources in quadrants 2 & 4:

The source of this figure: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Four-quadrants-operation-characteristics-of-a-DC-machine_fig3_324973158 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Four-quadrants-operation-characteristics-of-a-DC-machine_fig3_324973158

The second definition has sinks in quadrants 2 & 4 and sources in quadrant 1 & 3:

The source of this figure: http://www.kepcopower.com/hdbfig09.htm http://www.kepcopower.com/hdbfig09.htm

With an oscilloscope with multiply function hooked up as a power meter and by using one of the above definitions it is easy to study the power entering and exiting a component. It can also be calculated by using mathematical models. If studying the capacitor and inductor (coil) this way it is easy to see what is going on and how both of these components are reactive components absorbing (sinking) and giving back (sourcing) energy. Using the same method on non-reactive components like lamps or resistors it will show only energy going into such components (sinks). A motor is also a generator when energy is exiting that motor. By experimenting with capacitors and inductors it can be shown that they are the exact opposites of each other which is why they start oscillating when connected together while storing energy.

Regards
Ole






 

---In [email protected], <konehead@...> wrote :

 Hi Mick and Ole
 Interesting! 
 Yes so cap is opposite to coil in current moves oin cap while voltage moves in coil....
 Are the "functions of wben" also opposite?
 Such as switch opening in coil creates backwards in direction voltages spike nstantly, while with a cap it s the switch closure that creates the "trying to be instamt" current flow as cap.fills up...
 However, is there an amzlgous-to-flyback instantaneous current backflow "within" the cspacitor upon filling, or is this upon discharge, e both?
 Could this be described as inherent back emf?
 So maybe this analgous-to-flyback back current flow in cap will (also?)manifest during discharge to a load and the discharge switch closes?
 I have been taught and told a cap fills up in one direction but discharges in opposite direction but this makes no sense in real life since you must hook pos to pos neg to neg when filling up and discharging cap to let's say battery both fills and another is load. Or to fill cap N with cap A you better habe pos on pos amd.neg on neg
 Maybe this cap discharge of backward flow is that moment where a cap is filled to over-voltage level and it discharges on its own in explosive effect? I guess this discharge would be.imto the air more or less ..
 Also I noticed that a cap into inductor discharge also follows the rule of pos.on pos neg to neg since if you want current flow same as it was with batteruy, you will need to hook cap up same polarity as bsttery...
 So I don't know as usual just what works what doesn't but the opposite function and analogy of coil and flyback spike to cap and instant backwards current flow is very interesting
 ...maybe this is, or is confused with inherent back emf? I know half.thr world calls flyback spike back emf as a bit of confusion also maybe it is because what pushes that spike into "action" is the inherent back emf forces within the coil...the capacitance of the coil doing it so this source of confusion...now bring up TIME and when exactly things happen in each example, cap or coil and now is the.time function also ";opposite"?
 Kone

Dougthe spike in space rather than the scope image we visualise, some variation of a sine wave, is more like a fireball without gravity.It expands outward in all directions, including time.Capacitors capture part of this event in forms we might articulate two dimensionally, or even more.They almost act as sail boat sails in space, blocking and capturing the energy event, polarizing it like a filter.
We rarely discuss time in this filtering action.Perhaps it is too troublesome?Flyback reflections?Cheers Warren
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 at 1:18 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:       
Hi Ole
The sink or source power quadrants I look at as sort of flat scale but with flyback it happens at border line between sink and source perhaps you could say, and it shoots out "sideways" either at you or away from you, and in my brain it shoots both at you and away from you at same time "flash" too for near twice the speed of light (perhaps you could say)
So I think Mick and I are asking the same question (sort of) and what would be the analogy of the flyback spike in coil to whatever the opposite would be.in a capacitor.
All I can think of is the immediate inherent back emf force in electrical flow that resists the movement....but perhaps upon discharge of cap there is something else not looked at so much since it stays within the walls of the capacitor does not do damage like flyback spike....(I don't know just thinking)
Kone
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Hi Kone,

Look at it as energy instead of just voltage current and time. Electrical energy contains all of those three parameters. For the flyback pulse energy is first stored in an inductor (coil). When applying a voltage across the coil this starts the current. The charge carriers start moving faster and faster in an exponential way until only limited by the resistance of the circuit. This current represents a magnetic field formed through the coil and around all the current carrying wires and thus stores magnetic energy. When opening the circuit the magnetic field collapses from the value it has during opening the circuit. The collapse also keeps the current at the value it has at that same moment of opening the circuit as this current is what makes that size of magnetic field through the coil and the rest of the circuit. From the point of opening the circuit the magnetic field and the current begins declining in an inverse exponential way. I.e. the current drops very fast in the beginning and decreases at a slower and slower rate.

As the coil after opening the circuit has changed from a sink to a source by changing from absorbing energy to giving off energy it is now a generator (instead of a motor). The induced voltage given off by the coil is the rate of change of the current multiplied by the inductance of the coil. Mathematically it can be written as: 
where v is the voltage i is the current t is time and L is the inductance of the coil. The t in parenthesis indicates the letter before the parenthesis is a function of t (time). The d before i and t indicates a differential change in those values. Greak letter delta can also be used for such a change. Source of the above formula: https://wiki2.org/en/Inductance https://wiki2.org/en/Inductance.

 As the current has a very fast rate of change [di(t)/dt] just after opening the circuit this means that the induced voltage or flyback voltage will be great at just that moment. This is known as the flyback voltage in the discipline of electronics. The faster the opening of the circuit the faster the energy is given off and as power is the rate of energy flow [P = dE(t)/dt] this also means higher power the faster the circuit is opened. E is here energy and P is power. What limits opening the circuit is capacitance which stores energy. For a fast decline in current (i.e. a fast rate of change in current) all capacitance must be minimized. This was what Tesla tried to do with the Tesla transformer. But even the vacuum of space has capacitance thus capacitance can't be totally avoided.

In most circuits the rate of change is limited on purpose by using snubbers to prevent the voltage from punching through the insulation.

For a capacitor discharge just switch around voltage and current in the formulas as well as switching C for L (switching capacitance for inductance).

  Source: https://wiki2.org/en/Capacitance https://wiki2.org/en/Capacitance
C is the capacitance while the rest of the letters are as for the first formula.

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <konehead@...> wrote :

 Hi Ole
 The sink or source power quadrants I look at as sort of flat scale but with flyback it happens at border line between sink and source perhaps you could say, and it shoots out "sideways" either at you or away from you, and in my brain it shoots both at you and away from you at same time "flash" too for near twice the speed of light (perhaps you could say)
 So I think Mick and I are asking the same question (sort of) and what would be the analogy of the flyback spike in coil to whatever the opposite would be.in a capacitor.
 All I can think of is the immediate inherent back emf force in electrical flow that resists the movement....but perhaps upon discharge of cap there is something else not looked at so much since it stays within the walls of the capacitor does not do damage like flyback spike....(I don't know just thinking)
 Kone

Warren,

R/C time constant is always calculated for resonant circuits but as you
mention then we move on and kind of forget about time.  The transient
response of a capacitor denotes it's quality factor or Q.   In other
words how fast those sails can fill or empty of wind.  I like to think
of caps more like dams and reservoirs of water.  How fast can that lake
fill or empty is the transient response and how big the lake is the
number of farads.  How much water pressure it can hold before punching a
hole through the dam is the voltage.  I am sure you can guess the water
analogy of an inductor.

You are right about time not always being mentioned other than frequency
which is only one dimension of the time.  A scope should really be in 3d
and we would see a spinning helical wave like a screw thread rather than
a sine wave.

As Ole has mentioned if we calculate all of a circuit taking time as
more than just an afterthought then we would be using transmission line
theory like Ivor Catt, or even relative electromagnetism as Liegh Page
did in the 30's or 40's and was able to derive a complete system
including Maxwells equations from only the Lorentz transform and
Coulombs law.  Using the Liegh Page approach we can integrate
Schauberger's vortex as inertial frames under acceleration.  He is
another often overlooked character in our field of research.


On 8/21/2018 1:49 AM, Warren Keillor [email protected]
[EVGRAY] wrote:
>  
>
> Doug
>
> the spike in space rather than the scope image we visualise, some
> variation of a sine wave, is more like a fireball without gravity.
> It expands outward in all directions, including time.
> Capacitors capture part of this event in forms we might articulate two
> dimensionally, or even more.
> They almost act as sail boat sails in space, blocking and capturing
> the energy event, polarizing it like a filter.
> We rarely discuss time in this filtering action.
> Perhaps it is too troublesome?
> Flyback reflections?
> Cheers Warren
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>
>
>     On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 at 1:18 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY]
>     <[email protected]> wrote:
>      
>
>     Hi Ole
>     The sink or source power quadrants I look at as sort of flat scale
>     but with flyback it happens at border line between sink and source
>     perhaps you could say, and it shoots out "sideways" either at you
>     or away from you, and in my brain it shoots both at you and away
>     from you at same time "flash" too for near twice the speed of
>     light (perhaps you could say)
>     So I think Mick and I are asking the same question (sort of) and
>     what would be the analogy of the flyback spike in coil to whatever
>     the opposite would be.in a capacitor.
>     All I can think of is the immediate inherent back emf force in
>     electrical flow that resists the movement....but perhaps upon
>     discharge of cap there is something else not looked at so much
>     since it stays within the walls of the capacitor does not do
>     damage like flyback spike....(I don't know just thinking)
>     Kone
>
>

OleThank you for the basic review, which is helpful to always keep in mind as we grapple with squeezing out a little more energy from devices.Keeping pictures in our minds helps to visualise and perhaps find new combinations.Cheers Warren

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 at 7:01 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:       
Hi Kone,

Look at it as energy instead of just voltage current and time. Electrical energy contains all of those three parameters. For the flyback pulse energy is first stored in an inductor (coil). When applying a voltage across the coil this starts the current. The charge carriers start moving faster and faster in an exponential way until only limited by the resistance of the circuit. This current represents a magnetic field formed through the coil and around all the current carrying wires and thus stores magnetic energy. When opening the circuit the magnetic field collapses from the value it has during opening the circuit. The collapse also keeps the current at the value it has at that same moment of opening the circuit as this current is what makes that size of magnetic field through the coil and the rest of the circuit. From the point of opening the circuit the magnetic field and the current begins declining in an inverse exponential way. I.e. the current drops very fast in the beginning and decreases at a slower and slower rate.

As the coil after opening the circuit has changed from a sink to a source by changing from absorbing energy to giving off energy it is now a generator (instead of a motor). The induced voltage given off by the coil is the rate of change of the current multiplied by the inductance of the coil. Mathematically it can be written as: 
where v is the voltage i is the current t is time and L is the inductance of the coil. The t in parenthesis indicates the letter before the parenthesis is a function of t (time). The d before i and t indicates a differential change in those values. Greak letter delta can also be used for such a change. Source of the above formula: https://wiki2.org/en/Inductance.

 As the current has a very fast rate of change [di(t)/dt] just after opening the circuit this means that the induced voltage or flyback voltage will be great at just that moment. This is known as the flyback voltage in the discipline of electronics. The faster the opening of the circuit the faster the energy is given off and as power is the rate of energy flow [P = dE(t)/dt] this also means higher power the faster the circuit is opened. E is here energy and P is power. What limits opening the circuit is capacitance which stores energy. For a fast decline in current (i.e. a fast rate of change in current) all capacitance must be minimized. This was what Tesla tried to do with the Tesla transformer. But even the vacuum of space has capacitance thus capacitance can't be totally avoided.

In most circuits the rate of change is limited on purpose by using snubbers to prevent the voltage from punching through the insulation.

For a capacitor discharge just switch around voltage and current in the formulas as well as switching C for L (switching capacitance for inductance).

  Source: https://wiki2.org/en/Capacitance
C is the capacitance while the rest of the letters are as for the first formula.

Regards
Ole



---In [email protected], <konehead@...> wrote :

Hi Ole
The sink or source power quadrants I look at as sort of flat scale but with flyback it happens at border line between sink and source perhaps you could say, and it shoots out "sideways" either at you or away from you, and in my brain it shoots both at you and away from you at same time "flash" too for near twice the speed of light (perhaps you could say)
So I think Mick and I are asking the same question (sort of) and what would be the analogy of the flyback spike in coil to whatever the opposite would be.in a capacitor.
All I can think of is the immediate inherent back emf force in electrical flow that resists the movement....but perhaps upon discharge of cap there is something else not looked at so much since it stays within the walls of the capacitor does not do damage like flyback spike....(I don't know just thinking)
Kone  #yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950 -- #yiv8373224950ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950ygrp-mkp #yiv8373224950hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950ygrp-mkp #yiv8373224950ads {margin-bottom:10px;}#yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950ygrp-mkp .yiv8373224950ad {padding:0 0;}#yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950ygrp-mkp .yiv8373224950ad p {margin:0;}#yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950ygrp-mkp .yiv8373224950ad a {color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}#yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950ygrp-sponsor #yiv8373224950ygrp-lc {font-family:Arial;}#yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950ygrp-sponsor #yiv8373224950ygrp-lc #yiv8373224950hd {margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}#yiv8373224950 #yiv8373224950ygrp-sponsor #yiv8373224950ygrp-lc .yiv8373224950ad {margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 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Hi Ole
 Thanks its very good clear description and info...
 I watched a vides by Bedini the other day and he was telling a crowd around him that when the flyback occurs (he calls it back emf) what is occurring is that the bloch-wall (the center of the coil where N meets S you could say) gets shoved or moved way over to "one side" when the coil collapses upon switch opening which is interesting way to look at what happens...he was saying that the altitude of the collapsing field affects the energy giving out from the coil and he verified this by going to top of mountain at least this is what I get from the video....here it is
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtGz4QHJ0e4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtGz4QHJ0e4

Hi Kone,

Back EMF is the generated voltage working against the voltage driving a motor. Only the difference between the voltage driving and the voltage generated (back EMF) is what actually drives current through the motor.

I think Bedini use coherent fields in his wheels giving off free energy. He has a description of a coil having several parallel strands of insulated wire. Each wire is driven by its own transistor. This could be for mixing several separate fields into a single coherent field and then harvest the difference in energy. Pierre Cotnoir also seems to use this principle. The difference is that when calculating the energy of the separate fields the current is squared before being added when seen from the input side while the currents are added and then squared when seen from the output side. It's the current term of the formula that is squared when calculating the energy. This is the principle of inversion according to Wilbert B. Smith and is a way to pull out energy from the cosmic background field. Many free energy inventors may not actually know why their devices work like Lester Hendershot who could make his device work but could not scale it up or down. This looks like he didn't know precisely why it worked. Same could hold true for Bedini.

Look for the principle of inversion in free energy devices or some kind of parametric pumping. If wanting high voltage perhaps make the voltage ionize the air like the Swiss Testatika does which pulls out energy by sorting the charges of the air molecules (ions) according to information given to Albert Hauser from Paul Baumann. Baumann told Hauser that the Testatika would stop if left in a closed room without air movement. Leaving a window partly open or having people moving around in the room would make it continue its running.

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <konehead@...> wrote :

 Hi Ole
 Thanks its very good clear description and info...
 I watched a vides by Bedini the other day and he was telling a crowd around him that when the flyback occurs (he calls it back emf) what is occurring is that the bloch-wall (the center of the coil where N meets S you could say) gets shoved or moved way over to "one side" when the coil collapses upon switch opening which is interesting way to look at what happens...he was saying that the altitude of the collapsing field affects the energy giving out from the coil and he verified this by going to top of mountain at least this is what I get from the video....here it is
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtGz4QHJ0e4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtGz4QHJ0e4

Hello!   Ole  and Kone, I sincerely have to call you guys out here on 
the concept of how all electrostatic machines work. I have provided 
proof of how the various methods of creating potential differential in 
electrostatics only to find you guys retrograding back to beating on 
logs with clubs.   Lets go over it again in case you missed something. 
Over the years I built many electrostatic devices and was always 
fascinated over how they worked.   Back when I worked with Leonard 
Dorset and his Super Steam Technology, I paid him to go to the Dallas 
Main Library and pull up all that was available on electrostatics for I 
wanted answers as to how the charge separation actually worked.  The 
impetus behind the search was the Armstrong Machine that is in the 
London Polytech Museum.    The steam driven machine was one of the most 
powerful ever built and worked at the phase change point in steam 
condensation in the insulated nozzle design.   It has been know for a 
very long time that there is a discrepancy in Thermodynamics of 
Chemistry and has been written about in many text books regarding the 
presence of more electrons after the phase change back to liquid form 
from steam.  A Physicist (Austria) lectured on this subject at one of 
Hal Puthoff Conference at Austin.   Phase change is a method to drag 
that aetheric energy out of the space background.  There are many 
applications of electrostatic machines that operate in a hard vacuum 
therefore do not have the air as a contributing media for electron 
sourcing.  You seem to forget the wonderful book by Joseph Cater, 
Awesome Life Force in which he explains the difference between hard 
electrons and soft electrons.  The greatest example of wrong beliefs 
regarding the source of charge separation was the Felici Electrostatic 
generator that operates in a sealed environment of 30 atmosphere 
pressure of .99% pure hydrogen gas and is the most powerful machines 
ever built with a 3KW output at half million volts.  I asked you the 
question as to where the charge comes from in this environment?????   If 
you download the book The  Physics of the Primary State of Matter, 
Davson, Karl Schappeller, you will find that in a hard vacuum there is 
the phenomenon of Glowing Magnetism (Cold Plasma) which is highly 
concentrated aetheric energy.    Look at the Felici machine.

Quote!  Look for the principle of inversion in free energy devices or 
some kind of parametric pumping. If wanting high voltage perhaps make 
the voltage ionize the air like the Swiss Testatika does which pulls out 
energy by sorting the charges of the air molecules (ions) according to 
information given to Albert Hauser from Paul Baumann. Baumann told 
Hauser that the Testatika would stop if left in a closed room without 
air movement. Leaving a window partly open or having people moving 
around in the room would make it continue its running.      WRONG!!!!!

Regards
Ole

Oh! Lets clear the air on BACK EMF,  Please!

BACK EMF

I am having a big problem with the loose use of terminology on all on 
these web sites regarding "BACK EMF".Everyone, PLEASE pick up anyhandy 
physics book and look up "LENZ'S LAW" and read very carefully just what 
back emf really is.When an electromotive force is applied to an 
inductor, a counter force is generated which is in opposition to the 
primary force through self induction. This is what causes the current to 
lag the voltage in an inductive circuit while the magnetic field is 
building.When we cut off the primary current in the inductor an 
electromotive force is generated via the collapse of the magnetic field 
and can be correctly called the

"INDUCTIVE KICK BACK". The rate of collapse of this magnetic flux

directly determines the magnitude of the "spike voltage" generated. What 
you are seeing is energy compressed in time.This is the reason that an 
inductor can be energized with, let's say 12 volts DC and a sudden 
collapse of the magnetic field can produce a spike of several hundred 
volts.(conservation of energy)Don't feel bad about the misunderstanding 
of these terms for if you go to an Internet search under "BACK EMF" you will

find many sites totally confusedand miss using the terms.One site has a 
demonstration of an inductor with a light bulb in parallel that flashes 
when the circuit is opened and they call it "BACK EMF".Wrong, it is 
inductive kick back from a collapsing magnetic field.

Thanks in advance for you guys taking the time to review the text

book.Norm


Remember Mick, You have been saying Differential?  Well, here is what is 
happening which agrees with Hal Puthoff paper on the spontaneous 
formation of hydrogen from space background from free protons.  Please 
review Irving Langmuir 
<https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irving_Langmuir>  Atomic Hydrogen. Here 
is my theory as to how the 3000watts of HVDC is created in a 30 atm. 
atmosphere of .9999 pure hydrogen gas. In the Lanfmuir torch a high 
voltage charge breaks the H2 bond creating monatomic hydrogen (atoms).  
Same with the Felici Generator, the operating gas is Atomic Hydrogen. 
According to Hal Puthoff, if a hydrogen atom looses an electron it is 
immediately replenished by the Zero Point space background.   The Felici 
Generator is a zero Point Energy Generator or PUMP.  I had an 
interesting discussion with Ken (RIP) Shoulders at a New Energy 
Symposium in Denver. I asked him what type of power supply he used in 
charging his HVDC capacitor banks for the Charged Cluster experiments. 
His reply was an Electrostatic Influence Machine (Holtz Machine).  He  
said that if you apply a potential of lets say 100,000 Volts across a 
capacitor it will charge because you have stressed the dielectric 
(dielectric displacement).   Interesting answer to say the least. The 
charged capacitors will do work.  Same with the Felici Generator for the 
3,000 watt output will do work  drawing the energy from the space 
background.   See!  Mick, I had to answer my own question for nobody 
thinks about the perplexing problems.  Ha! Ha!     Norm

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja02208a003

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_hydrogen_welding



http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=teslaring;id=1;url=http%3A%2F%2Fu2%2Elege%2Enet%2Fnewebmasters%2Ecom__freeenergy%2Fexternal_links_from_theverylastpageoftheinternet%2Ecom%2Fhighvoltage%2FHVgenerator%2FHVgenerator%2Ehtm

Speaking of Hydrogen, gas with one proton and one electron / atom, where 
does the electrons come from in the Felici HV Electrostatic Generator??  
I have issued this challenge before with no comments.


On 7/20/2018 9:37 AM, Norman Wootan [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:

Going back to a subject not fully understood.   What is Heat? Which has 
more energy, Holes or Electrons? Hot surface = holes due to missing 
electrons vs cold surface= packing of electrons until all holes are 
filled (absolute zero conditions) BTW, absolute zero conditions, there 
is no Browning Motion for there are no holes for electrons to move in 
the atomic lattice. See:

https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/199606/achieve.cfm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen

Put on your thinking caps!  Norm


On 8/21/2018 6:12 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>
> Hi Kone,
>
> Back EMF is the generated voltage working against the voltage driving 
> a motor. Only the difference between the voltage driving and the 
> voltage generated (back EMF) is what actually drives current through 
> the motor.
>
> I think Bedini use coherent fields in his wheels giving off free 
> energy. He has a description of a coil having several parallel strands 
> of insulated wire. Each wire is driven by its own transistor. This 
> could be for mixing several separate fields into a single coherent 
> field and then harvest the difference in energy. Pierre Cotnoir also 
> seems to use this principle. The difference is that when calculating 
> the energy of the separate fields the current is squared before being 
> added when seen from the input side while the currents are added and 
> then squared when seen from the output side. It's the current term of 
> the formula that is squared when calculating the energy. This is the 
> principle of inversion according to Wilbert B. Smith and is a way to 
> pull out energy from the cosmic background field. Many free energy 
> inventors may not actually know why their devices work like Lester 
> Hendershot who could make his device work but could not scale it up or 
> down. This looks like he didn't know precisely why it worked. Same 
> could hold true for Bedini.
>
> Look for the principle of inversion in free energy devices or some 
> kind of parametric pumping. If wanting high voltage perhaps make the 
> voltage ionize the air like the Swiss Testatika does which pulls out 
> energy by sorting the charges of the air molecules (ions) according to 
> information given to Albert Hauser from Paul Baumann. Baumann told 
> Hauser that the Testatika would stop if left in a closed room without 
> air movement. Leaving a window partly open or having people moving 
> around in the room would make it continue its running.
>
> Regards
> Ole
>
>
>
> ---In [email protected], <konehead@...> wrote :
>
> Hi Ole
>
> Thanks its very good clear description and info...
>
> I watched a vides by Bedini the other day and he was telling a crowd 
> around him that when the flyback occurs (he calls it back emf) what is 
> occurring is that the bloch-wall (the center of the coil where N meets 
> S you could say) gets shoved or moved way over to "one side" when the 
> coil collapses upon switch opening which is interesting way to look at 
> what happens...he was saying that the altitude of the collapsing field 
> affects the energy giving out from the coil and he verified this by 
> going to top of mountain at least this is what I get from the 
> video....here it is
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtGz4QHJ0e4
>
>

Thanks! Kone for that little expose' on generators and source of 
electrons!  Do you remember when Tom Bearden proposed a unique permanent 
magnet generator which had two disk with PMs enplanted that rotated in 
planes at 90 degrees to one another.  What he was proposing and has been 
proven from solar flare research is the phenomenon of Anti-parallel flux 
annihilation which creates the EMP event.   see: 
https://www.nap.edu/read/10993/chapter/4

If you liked the movie Contact, a tribute to Carl Sagan staring Jody 
Foster, you saw a classic example of the three plane rotation of 
powerful magnetic fields which opened a Portal in space time! As far as 
Bloch wall displacement, go to the Flux Compression Generator (EMP) 
producing weapon. See:https://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm   
There are so many open ended questions as to exactly What is Electricity 
it is totally ridiculous in this modern time.

https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/1805-explosively-pumped-flux-compression-generatorfcg/ 
A classic example of selective directional magnetic flux propagation!

http://library.psfc.mit.edu/catalog/reports/2010/16ja/16ja008/16ja008_full.pdf


On 8/22/2018 7:33 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>
> Hi Norm
> Sorry I know it annoys you when people mix up backemf and inductive 
> kickback so many people do this even Bedini did that in the video I 
> thought so... but maybe he was describing the magnetic field 
> compressing the Bloch wall then magnetic field shooting off into space 
> both directions at once and this giving that high voltage to be 
> collected into cap.....sort of interesting how he looks at the 
> inductive kickback but you know considering he was describing the 
> Bloch wall, and what happens with that upon switch opening, so he is 
> speaking of the magnetic field in a coil (So now maybe backemf is the 
> correct term for what he decribed)
> Because the initial current flow established the Bloch walll in center 
> of coil, when the current is cut off, now nothing to keep that Bloch 
> wall "in place"
> and in fact the Bloch wall itself reversed polarity and this shoves 
> both sides of the magnetic field off into space and this giving that 
> high voltage kickback too, (when you look at it in electrical flow 
> rather than magnetic field splitting)..this I find really interesting 
> since this is also konehead theory in I always say upon switch turn 
> off of current into inductor, there is an instant splitting of the 
> electrical flow direction with inductive kickback going one way and 
> current already going the other ipso fatso it's twice the speed of 
> light ipso fatso creates mini black hole type aether vacuum so 
> electrons and stuff get drawn into it....same with generators it's 
> that reversing field that sucks in the energy almost nobody can 
> explAin why generators keep making electrical power as long as they 
> spin as where does it come from the magnets the coils?.....seems like 
> the electrons stored in there would run out quick so it must come from 
> surrounding environment but it seems endless supply being sucked in so 
> how does the power replenish itself so now it comes to separate 
> parralell dimensions nobody wants to think another dimension is where 
> it comes from that is not science that is confirming spirit world etc
> Kone
>
>

https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.4893422?journalCode=apl


On 8/22/2018 8:54 AM, Norman Wootan wrote:
>
> Thanks! Kone for that little expose' on generators and source of 
> electrons!  Do you remember when Tom Bearden proposed a unique 
> permanent magnet generator which had two disk with PMs enplanted that 
> rotated in planes at 90 degrees to one another. What he was proposing 
> and has been proven from solar flare research is the phenomenon of 
> Anti-parallel flux annihilation which creates the EMP event.   see: 
> https://www.nap.edu/read/10993/chapter/4
>
> If you liked the movie Contact, a tribute to Carl Sagan staring Jody 
> Foster, you saw a classic example of the three plane rotation of 
> powerful magnetic fields which opened a Portal in space time!   As far 
> as Bloch wall displacement, go to the Flux Compression Generator (EMP) 
> producing weapon. See:https://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm 
> There are so many open ended questions as to exactly What is 
> Electricity it is totally ridiculous in this modern time.
>
> https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/1805-explosively-pumped-flux-compression-generatorfcg/ 
> A classic example of selective directional magnetic flux propagation!
>
> http://library.psfc.mit.edu/catalog/reports/2010/16ja/16ja008/16ja008_full.pdf
>
>
> On 8/22/2018 7:33 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>>
>> Hi Norm
>> Sorry I know it annoys you when people mix up backemf and inductive 
>> kickback so many people do this even Bedini did that in the video I 
>> thought so... but maybe he was describing the magnetic field 
>> compressing the Bloch wall then magnetic field shooting off into 
>> space both directions at once and this giving that high voltage to be 
>> collected into cap.....sort of interesting how he looks at the 
>> inductive kickback but you know considering he was describing the 
>> Bloch wall, and what happens with that upon switch opening, so he is 
>> speaking of the magnetic field in a coil (So now maybe backemf is the 
>> correct term for what he decribed)
>> Because the initial current flow established the Bloch walll in 
>> center of coil, when the current is cut off, now nothing to keep that 
>> Bloch wall "in place"
>> and in fact the Bloch wall itself reversed polarity and this shoves 
>> both sides of the magnetic field off into space and this giving that 
>> high voltage kickback too, (when you look at it in electrical flow 
>> rather than magnetic field splitting)..this I find really interesting 
>> since this is also konehead theory in I always say upon switch turn 
>> off of current into inductor, there is an instant splitting of the 
>> electrical flow direction with inductive kickback going one way and 
>> current already going the other ipso fatso it's twice the speed of 
>> light ipso fatso creates mini black hole type aether vacuum so 
>> electrons and stuff get drawn into it....same with generators it's 
>> that reversing field that sucks in the energy almost nobody can 
>> explAin why generators keep making electrical power as long as they 
>> spin as where does it come from the magnets the coils?.....seems like 
>> the electrons stored in there would run out quick so it must come 
>> from surrounding environment but it seems endless supply being sucked 
>> in so how does the power replenish itself so now it comes to separate 
>> parralell dimensions nobody wants to think another dimension is where 
>> it comes from that is not science that is confirming spirit world etc
>> Kone
>>
>> 
>

Kone,

Wherever it comes from, the Aether or the more modern vocabulary dark
matter or another dimension  it is obviously due to magnetic fields.  I
propose a generator is creating an aether vortex due to it's spin, the
proper shape for a generator stator is probably Konical and without
reluctance so it is not locked to the AC frequency or the DC voltage and
can reach the natural speed of it's own magnetic moment.  If one looks
into magnetic fields with a simple compass it is apparent that there are
all sort of eddy whirls and perturbations from simply moving a permanent
magnet like running a stick through the water, more than just the poles
trying to come back to equilibrium because there is also a rise and fall
and the needle shakes at diff frequencies based on nearby ferromagnetic
materials or other magnets.  I think people have a much more static
concept of a moving magnet affecting their surroundings.  Interesting
that the only modern reliable generator still seems to require being
spun mechanically.  I think we are getting close with the stationary
machines as long as the hyperbolic field can be sustained but there is
some little niggling variable we don't quite get and are not able to
reliably reproduce from a simple magnet spinning on a shaft.  Could it
be that the inertia is pulling the bloch wall off center and this is
what allows for the electron funnel to refill...  Would be interesting
to glue some of that green shit that shows the field onto the side of a
magnet and video it with a fast shutter to see if the block wall moves
when spun.



On 8/22/2018 5:33 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>  
>
> Hi Norm
> Sorry I know it annoys you when people mix up backemf and inductive
> kickback so many people do this even Bedini did that in the video I
> thought so... but maybe he was describing the magnetic field
> compressing the Bloch wall then magnetic field shooting off into space
> both directions at once and this giving that high voltage to be
> collected into cap.....sort of interesting how he looks at the
> inductive kickback but you know considering he was describing the
> Bloch wall, and what happens with that upon switch opening, so he is
> speaking of the magnetic field in a coil (So now maybe backemf is the
> correct term for what he decribed)
> Because the initial current flow established the Bloch walll in center
> of coil, when the current is cut off, now nothing to keep that Bloch
> wall "in place"
> and in fact the Bloch wall itself reversed polarity and this shoves
> both sides of the magnetic field off into space and this giving that
> high voltage kickback too, (when you look at it in electrical flow
> rather than magnetic field splitting)..this I find really interesting
> since this is also konehead theory in I always say upon switch turn
> off of current into inductor, there is an instant splitting of the
> electrical flow direction with inductive kickback going one way and
> current already going the other ipso fatso it's twice the speed of
> light ipso fatso creates mini black hole type aether vacuum so
> electrons and stuff get drawn into it....same with generators it's
> that reversing field that sucks in the energy almost nobody can
> explAin why generators keep making electrical power as long as they
> spin as where does it come from the magnets the coils?.....seems like
> the electrons stored in there would run out quick so it must come from
> surrounding environment but it seems endless supply being sucked in so
> how does the power replenish itself so now it comes to separate
> parralell dimensions nobody wants to think another dimension is where
> it comes from that is not science that is confirming spirit world etc
> Kone
>
>

http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~sitnov/TCS/tcs_1_files/ONLINE/RSX_UMary_TCS2004.pdf 
Just a note!  While you guys beat on hollow logs with big clubs, I elect 
to learn more about the hidden world of Magnetism and how it all works!  
Ha! Ha!  Norm


On 8/22/2018 8:58 AM, Norman Wootan wrote:
>
> https://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.4893422?journalCode=apl
>
>
> On 8/22/2018 8:54 AM, Norman Wootan wrote:
>>
>> Thanks! Kone for that little expose' on generators and source of 
>> electrons!  Do you remember when Tom Bearden proposed a unique 
>> permanent magnet generator which had two disk with PMs enplanted that 
>> rotated in planes at 90 degrees to one another.  What he was 
>> proposing and has been proven from solar flare research is the 
>> phenomenon of Anti-parallel flux annihilation which creates the EMP 
>> event.   see: https://www.nap.edu/read/10993/chapter/4
>>
>> If you liked the movie Contact, a tribute to Carl Sagan staring Jody 
>> Foster, you saw a classic example of the three plane rotation of 
>> powerful magnetic fields which opened a Portal in space time!   As 
>> far as Bloch wall displacement, go to the Flux Compression Generator 
>> (EMP) producing weapon. 
>> See:https://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm There are so many 
>> open ended questions as to exactly What is Electricity it is totally 
>> ridiculous in this modern time.
>>
>> https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/1805-explosively-pumped-flux-compression-generatorfcg/ 
>> A classic example of selective directional magnetic flux propagation!
>>
>> http://library.psfc.mit.edu/catalog/reports/2010/16ja/16ja008/16ja008_full.pdf
>>
>>
>> On 8/22/2018 7:33 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Norm
>>> Sorry I know it annoys you when people mix up backemf and inductive 
>>> kickback so many people do this even Bedini did that in the video I 
>>> thought so... but maybe he was describing the magnetic field 
>>> compressing the Bloch wall then magnetic field shooting off into 
>>> space both directions at once and this giving that high voltage to 
>>> be collected into cap.....sort of interesting how he looks at the 
>>> inductive kickback but you know considering he was describing the 
>>> Bloch wall, and what happens with that upon switch opening, so he is 
>>> speaking of the magnetic field in a coil (So now maybe backemf is 
>>> the correct term for what he decribed)
>>> Because the initial current flow established the Bloch walll in 
>>> center of coil, when the current is cut off, now nothing to keep 
>>> that Bloch wall "in place"
>>> and in fact the Bloch wall itself reversed polarity and this shoves 
>>> both sides of the magnetic field off into space and this giving that 
>>> high voltage kickback too, (when you look at it in electrical flow 
>>> rather than magnetic field splitting)..this I find really 
>>> interesting since this is also konehead theory in I always say upon 
>>> switch turn off of current into inductor, there is an instant 
>>> splitting of the electrical flow direction with inductive kickback 
>>> going one way and current already going the other ipso fatso it's 
>>> twice the speed of light ipso fatso creates mini black hole type 
>>> aether vacuum so electrons and stuff get drawn into it....same with 
>>> generators it's that reversing field that sucks in the energy almost 
>>> nobody can explAin why generators keep making electrical power as 
>>> long as they spin as where does it come from the magnets the 
>>> coils?.....seems like the electrons stored in there would run out 
>>> quick so it must come from surrounding environment but it seems 
>>> endless supply being sucked in so how does the power replenish 
>>> itself so now it comes to separate parralell dimensions nobody wants 
>>> to think another dimension is where it comes from that is not 
>>> science that is confirming spirit world etc
>>> Kone
>>>
>>> 
>>
>

Mick and Kone, You first have to establish the fact that a magnetic 
field is a simple manifestation (artifact) of an Aetheric flow.  
Ferromagnetic material cause an en trained flow of aetheric energy and 
the resultant magnet flux ropes (field lines) we see as magnetic flux.  
Same as sending a current through a wire and a magnet flux field is 
produced. Now you have to ask, What is a current flow?  What is flowing, 
Electrons, holes ???   We know that magnetic flux around a magnet flow 
in a helix pattern which cause the phenomenon of tube (flux lines) 
separation due to like spin.  Anti-parallel flux lines have opposite 
spin and are attracted to one another. At critical angles of 
entanglement there is the annihilation/ reconnect process where we get 
the conversion of energy forms. EMP.   All of this is well documented 
from Astrophysics.


On 8/22/2018 11:07 AM, Mick [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>
> Kone,
>
> Wherever it comes from, the Aether or the more modern vocabulary dark 
> matter or another dimension  it is obviously due to magnetic fields.  
> I propose a generator is creating an aether vortex due to it's spin, 
> the proper shape for a generator stator is probably Konical and 
> without reluctance so it is not locked to the AC frequency or the DC 
> voltage and can reach the natural speed of it's own magnetic moment.  
> If one looks into magnetic fields with a simple compass it is apparent 
> that there are all sort of eddy whirls and perturbations from simply 
> moving a permanent magnet like running a stick through the water, more 
> than just the poles trying to come back to equilibrium because there 
> is also a rise and fall and the needle shakes at diff frequencies 
> based on nearby ferromagnetic materials or other magnets.  I think 
> people have a much more static concept of a moving magnet affecting 
> their surroundings.  Interesting that the only modern reliable 
> generator still seems to require being spun mechanically.  I think we 
> are getting close with the stationary machines as long as the 
> hyperbolic field can be sustained but there is some little niggling 
> variable we don't quite get and are not able to reliably reproduce 
> from a simple magnet spinning on a shaft.  Could it be that the 
> inertia is pulling the bloch wall off center and this is what allows 
> for the electron funnel to refill... Would be interesting to glue some 
> of that green shit that shows the field onto the side of a magnet and 
> video it with a fast shutter to see if the block wall moves when spun.
>
>
>
> On 8/22/2018 5:33 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>>
>> Hi Norm
>> Sorry I know it annoys you when people mix up backemf and inductive 
>> kickback so many people do this even Bedini did that in the video I 
>> thought so... but maybe he was describing the magnetic field 
>> compressing the Bloch wall then magnetic field shooting off into 
>> space both directions at once and this giving that high voltage to be 
>> collected into cap.....sort of interesting how he looks at the 
>> inductive kickback but you know considering he was describing the 
>> Bloch wall, and what happens with that upon switch opening, so he is 
>> speaking of the magnetic field in a coil (So now maybe backemf is the 
>> correct term for what he decribed)
>> Because the initial current flow established the Bloch walll in 
>> center of coil, when the current is cut off, now nothing to keep that 
>> Bloch wall "in place"
>> and in fact the Bloch wall itself reversed polarity and this shoves 
>> both sides of the magnetic field off into space and this giving that 
>> high voltage kickback too, (when you look at it in electrical flow 
>> rather than magnetic field splitting)..this I find really interesting 
>> since this is also konehead theory in I always say upon switch turn 
>> off of current into inductor, there is an instant splitting of the 
>> electrical flow direction with inductive kickback going one way and 
>> current already going the other ipso fatso it's twice the speed of 
>> light ipso fatso creates mini black hole type aether vacuum so 
>> electrons and stuff get drawn into it....same with generators it's 
>> that reversing field that sucks in the energy almost nobody can 
>> explAin why generators keep making electrical power as long as they 
>> spin as where does it come from the magnets the coils?.....seems like 
>> the electrons stored in there would run out quick so it must come 
>> from surrounding environment but it seems endless supply being sucked 
>> in so how does the power replenish itself so now it comes to separate 
>> parralell dimensions nobody wants to think another dimension is where 
>> it comes from that is not science that is confirming spirit world etc
>> Kone
>>
>
>

Hi Norm
Sorry I know it annoys you when people mix up backemf and inductive kickback so many people do this even Bedini did that in the video I thought so... but maybe he was describing the magnetic field compressing the Bloch wall then magnetic field shooting off into space both directions at once and this giving that high voltage to be collected into cap.....sort of interesting how he looks at the inductive kickback but you know considering he was describing the Bloch wall, and what happens with that upon switch opening, so he is speaking of the magnetic field in a coil (So now maybe backemf is the correct term for what he decribed)
Because the initial current flow established the Bloch walll in center of coil, when the current is cut off, now nothing to keep that Bloch wall "in place" 
and in fact the Bloch wall itself reversed polarity and this shoves both sides of the magnetic field off into space and this giving that high voltage kickback too, (when you look at it in electrical flow rather than magnetic field splitting)..this I find really interesting since this is also konehead theory in I always say upon switch turn off of current into inductor, there is an instant splitting of the electrical flow direction with inductive kickback going one way and current already going the other ipso fatso it's twice the speed of light ipso fatso creates mini black hole type aether vacuum so electrons and stuff get drawn into it....same with generators it's that reversing field that sucks in the energy almost nobody can explAin why generators keep making electrical power as long as they spin as where does it come from the magnets the coils?.....seems like the electrons stored in there would run out quick so it must come from surrounding environment but it seems endless supply being sucked in so how does the power replenish itself so now it comes to separate parralell dimensions nobody wants to think another dimension is where it comes from that is not science that is confirming spirit world etc
Kone

OleIt is very interesting to study electro static machines.I very much would like to build, or look at,  a motor run at high electrostatic voltages, to see what kind of torque can be produced.My Van de Graff generator doesn't seem to change rpm whether a lightning bolt is discharged, or not, even though it is driven with a puny little, old fashioned, shunt wound 1/10 hp dc motor. I have a suspicion that if you could have an effective electrostatic motor of a similar output, it would self run.I have no idea where the energy is coming from that exchanges from the dielectric belt, and sent up the column to be plucked off that belt with tiny metal hairs that are soldered together like a comb, or hair brush, then stored in a hollow metal ball( much loved by Hector)capacitor.Although the apparatus is simple, it produces perfect miniature lighning bolts, about 14 inches long, and other radiation of a kind that destroys diodes stored in drawers 30 feet away, when in operation.I am not jumping to conclusions here as to what is really happening, but it is of interest.Cheers Warren
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, 22 Aug 2018 at 7:21 AM, Norman Wootan [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:       
 

Hello!   Ole  and Kone, I sincerely have to call you guys out here on the concept of how all electrostatic machines work. I have provided proof of how the various methods of creating potential differential in electrostatics only to find you guys retrograding back to beating on logs with clubs.   Lets go over it again in case you missed something. Over the years I built many electrostatic devices and was always fascinated over how they worked.   Back when I worked with Leonard Dorset and his Super Steam Technology, I paid him to go to the Dallas Main Library and pull up all that was available on electrostatics for I wanted answers as to how the charge separation actually worked.  The impetus behind the search was the Armstrong Machine that is in the London Polytech Museum.    The steam driven machine was one of the most powerful ever built and worked at the phase change point in steam condensation in the insulated nozzle design.   It has been know for a very long time that there is a discrepancy in Thermodynamics of Chemistry and has been written about in many text books regarding the presence of more electrons after the phase change back to liquid form from steam.  A Physicist (Austria) lectured on this subject at one of Hal Puthoff Conference at Austin.   Phase change is a method to drag that aetheric energy out of the space background.  There are many applications of electrostatic machines that operate in a hard vacuum therefore do not have the air as a contributing media for electron sourcing.  You seem to forget the wonderful book by Joseph Cater, Awesome Life Force in which he explains the difference between hard electrons and soft electrons.  The greatest example of wrong beliefs regarding the source of charge separation was the Felici Electrostatic generator that operates in a sealed environment of 30 atmosphere pressure of .99% pure hydrogen gas and is the most powerful machines ever built with a 3KW output at half million volts.  I asked you the question as to where the charge comes from in this environment?????   If you download the book The  Physics of the Primary State of Matter, Davson, Karl Schappeller, you will find that in a hard vacuum there is the phenomenon of Glowing Magnetism (Cold Plasma) which is highly concentrated aetheric energy.    Look at the Felici machine.  
 
 
Quote!  Look for the principle of inversion in free energy devices or some kind of parametric pumping. If wanting high voltage perhaps make the voltage ionize the air like the Swiss Testatika does which pulls out energy by sorting the charges of the air molecules (ions) according to information given to Albert Hauser from Paul Baumann. Baumann told Hauser that the Testatika would stop if left in a closed room without air movement. Leaving a window partly open or having people moving around in the room would make it continue its running.      WRONG!!!!!
 
 Regards
 Ole
 Oh! Lets clear the air on BACK EMF,  Please!
 
 
BACK EMF
 
 
 
I am having a big problem with the loose use of terminology on all on these web sites regarding "BACK EMF".  Everyone, PLEASE pick up any  handy physics book and look up "LENZ'S LAW" and read very carefully just what back emf really is.  When an electromotive force is applied to an inductor, a counter force is generated which is in opposition to the primary force through self induction. This is what causes the current to lag the voltage in an inductive circuit while the magnetic field is building.  When we cut off the primary current in the inductor an electromotive force is generated via the collapse of the magnetic field and can be correctly called the
 
"INDUCTIVE KICK BACK". The rate of collapse of this magnetic flux
 
directly determines the magnitude of the "spike voltage" generated. What you are seeing is energy compressed in time.  This is the reason that an inductor can be energized with, let's say 12 volts DC and a sudden collapse of the magnetic field can produce a spike of several hundred volts.  (conservation of energy)  Don't feel bad about the misunderstanding of these terms for if you go to an Internet search under "BACK EMF" you will
 
find many sites totally confused  and miss using the terms.  One site has a demonstration of an inductor with a light bulb in parallel that flashes when the circuit is opened and they call it "BACK EMF".  Wrong, it is inductive kick back from a collapsing magnetic field.
 
Thanks in advance for you guys taking the time to review the text
 
book.   Norm
 

 
 
Remember Mick, You have been saying Differential?  Well, here is what is happening which agrees with Hal Puthoff paper on the spontaneous formation of hydrogen from space background from free protons.  Please review Irving Langmuir  Atomic Hydrogen.  Here is my theory as to how the 3000watts of HVDC is created in a 30 atm. atmosphere of .9999 pure hydrogen gas. In the Lanfmuir torch a high voltage charge breaks the H2 bond creating monatomic hydrogen (atoms).  Same with the Felici Generator, the operating gas is Atomic Hydrogen. According to Hal Puthoff, if a hydrogen atom looses an electron it is immediately replenished by the Zero Point space background.   The Felici Generator is a zero Point Energy Generator or PUMP.  I had an interesting discussion with Ken (RIP) Shoulders at a New Energy Symposium in Denver. I asked him what type of power supply he used in charging his HVDC capacitor banks for the Charged Cluster experiments. His reply was an Electrostatic Influence Machine (Holtz Machine).  He  said that if you apply a potential of lets say 100,000 Volts across a capacitor it will charge because you have stressed the dielectric (dielectric displacement).   Interesting answer to say the least.  The charged capacitors will do work.  Same with the Felici Generator for the 3,000 watt output will do work  drawing the energy from the space background.   See!  Mick, I had to answer my own question for nobody thinks about the perplexing problems.  Ha! Ha!     Norm
 
 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ja02208a003

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_hydrogen_welding 

 

 
 

 
 
http://www.webring.org/l/rd?ring=teslaring;id=1;url=http%3A%2F%2Fu2%2Elege%2Enet%2Fnewebmasters%2Ecom__freeenergy%2Fexternal_links_from_theverylastpageoftheinternet%2Ecom%2Fhighvoltage%2FHVgenerator%2FHVgenerator%2Ehtm
 
 Speaking of Hydrogen, gas with one proton and one electron / atom, where does the electrons come from in the Felici HV Electrostatic Generator??  I have issued this challenge before with no comments.
 
 
 On 7/20/2018 9:37 AM, Norman Wootan [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
  
 
 
Going back to a subject not fully understood.   What is Heat?    Which has more energy, Holes or Electrons? Hot surface = holes due to missing electrons vs cold surface= packing of electrons until all holes are filled (absolute zero conditions) BTW, absolute zero conditions, there is no Browning Motion for there are no holes for electrons to move in the atomic lattice. See:
 https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/199606/achieve.cfm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallic_hydrogen

Put on your thinking caps!  Norm
 

 

 
 On 8/21/2018 6:12 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
  
    
Hi Kone,
 
 Back EMF is the generated voltage working against the voltage driving a motor. Only the difference between the voltage driving and the voltage generated (back EMF) is what actually drives current through the motor.
 
 I think Bedini use coherent fields in his wheels giving off free energy. He has a description of a coil having several parallel strands of insulated wire. Each wire is driven by its own transistor. This could be for mixing several separate fields into a single coherent field and then harvest the difference in energy. Pierre Cotnoir also seems to use this principle. The difference is that when calculating the energy of the separate fields the current is squared before being added when seen from the input side while the currents are added and then squared when seen from the output side. It's the current term of the formula that is squared when calculating the energy. This is the principle of inversion according to Wilbert B. Smith and is a way to pull out energy from the cosmic background field. Many free energy inventors may not actually know why their devices work like Lester Hendershot who could make his device work but could not scale it up or down. This looks like he didn't know precisely why it worked. Same could hold true for Bedini.
 
 Look for the principle of inversion in free energy devices or some kind of parametric pumping. If wanting high voltage perhaps make the voltage ionize the air like the Swiss Testatika does which pulls out energy by sorting the charges of the air molecules (ions) according to information given to Albert Hauser from Paul Baumann. Baumann told Hauser that the Testatika would stop if left in a closed room without air movement. Leaving a window partly open or having people moving around in the room would make it continue its running.
 
 Regards
 Ole
 
 
 
 ---In [email protected], <konehead@...> wrote :
 
  
Hi Ole
 
Thanks its very good clear description and info...
 
I watched a vides by Bedini the other day and he was telling a crowd around him that when the flyback occurs (he calls it back emf) what is occurring is that the bloch-wall (the center of the coil where N meets S you could say) gets shoved or moved way over to "one side" when the coil collapses upon switch opening which is interesting way to look at what happens...he was saying that the altitude of the collapsing field affects the energy giving out from the coil and he verified this by going to top of mountain at least this is what I get from the video....here it is
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtGz4QHJ0e4
 
    
 
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