Re: [EVGRAY] Re: Moonbounce

Ole,

Specifically the math is messing with my head.  Either I am
misunderstanding / applying the math else according to FPL calculations
antenna gain and dbW something the distance of the moon should not be
feasible without millions of watts of transmitter power.

Laserbounce is another story due to the reflectors and the fact a laser
stays colimated enough not to disperse as quickly as does Rf.


On 6/6/2018 3:04 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>  
>
> Hi Mick,
>
> The problem by using the moon as a reflector could be made more
> efficient if placing a RF reflector just like the LASER reflectors
> already out there. Another way could be making a RF repeater like is
> done in communication satellites. It would probably be much cheaper to
> put up a communication satellite or to use one of the many already up
> there.
>
> The surface of the moon isn't a good conductor (I guess) and it may
> even spread out the signal instead of reflecting it back to the
> transmitter like it is done withcorner reflectors
> <https://wiki2.org/en/Corner_reflector>. This gives great loss of the
> received signal.
>
> Regards
> Ole
>
>
>
> ---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :
>
> https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php
>
> Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The
> path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
>
>
> Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector
> please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input
> transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL
> should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
>
>
> I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites
> for an answer.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mick
>
>
>
>

https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php

 Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
 

 Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
 

 I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites for an answer.
 

 

 Thanks,
 Mick

MickI don't know a lot about RF, though I am an advanced Canadian Ham.I managed to keep a schedule with another vessel, on 80 meters, that was in the South Pacific, while I was in the Eastern Caribean, using a hundred watt ICOM 735 and about a 65 ft long wire antenna strung in the rigging, with a Diwai mannual tuner.Time of day, sun spots, and Russian 1000watt rude fishing boats did play a factor on our weak signals.Cheers Warren

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 12:19 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:       


https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php


Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.




Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.




I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites for an answer.







Thanks,

Mick






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Hi Smokey,

To elaborate:

When designing terrestrial back hauls and such one uses the free space
path loss variable to determine how much gain is required to overcome
distance and the theoretical performance of a receiver.

Free space path loss is used to compute attenuation of an RF emitter
based on the spread of the signal from source same as the inverse square
law.

Then one can convert the db to dbw and determine watts of input on the
transmitter side.

There are events such as atmospheric skip and such where sometimes
nature helps the RF signals propagate beyond the norm, but for normal
reliable communications FSPL is a required input for the solution.

In the case of the moon FSPL would indicate the requirement for millions
of watts of power to create the gain necessary of around 140 db.

As for the reflectors I believe them to be there but have no first hand
proof of same.  I also believe humans went to the moon using something
other than rockets.  I do not believe in any way shape or form human
beings went to the moon with oxidating kerosene rockets of limited fuel
using unproven beta technology and made it there and back 6 times no one
lost no deaths with 60s tech, just preposterous.  Statistics alone not
accounting for many of the other issues that I and others already raised.

I am sorry if my questioning of reality upsets some people as I am not
detracting from the bravery of the astronauts as I think they were duped
and blackmailed based on the cold war with USSR at the time. One can
easily determine from their facial and body language at the news
conference something is definitely not right at all.


On 6/6/2018 5:58 PM, David G Dawson [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>  
>
> Hello Mick,
> Ex RF NASA CDSCC Tidbinbilla Australia - 14 years.
> CDSCC - Canberra Deep Space Communications Centre.
> I read your question but fail to understand can you please elaborate
> on the problem.
> The Deep Space Network (DSN) used small Dish Antennas for Moon Bounce
> but am unsure of the Transmitter ouput power but will search for the
> answer.
> Have attached the size Dish we used.
> Also, the DSN is now using a new antenna technology which is, instead
> of the Cone in the middle, is using a resonant cavity (Beam Waveguide)
> and these are now installed at Tidbinbilla DSS 34.
>
> https://www.cdscc.nasa.gov/Pages/antennas.html
>
> Wish to thank you all for your attention to this dialogue as you are
> all showing that we did go to the Moon as who was it then that set up
> the Laser Radar Reflectors on the Moon that all the Ham Radio Amateurs
> are now using for Moon Bounce since 1969?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment
>
> I was sent to Parkes 64 meter Observatory antenna (Movie - 'The Dish')
> in late 1972 as we were prime for Apollo 17 video and was actually
> sitting in the control room while the download video was being
> recorded and viewed on a TV on the console.
> Tidbinbilla 64m and Honeysuckle Creek 32m were prime and standby in
> Australia for all of the Spacecarft control sequences at the same time.
> The pictures attached are as recent as October 2017 as these are from
> my own camera.
> The Moon Bounce antenna shown was sited on the roof of the main
> building but has since been replaced but this one has a diameter of
> about 4'.
> I await more information and hope this will help.
>
> Smokey
>
> On 7/06/2018 2:19 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>>  
>>
>> https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php
>>
>> Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The
>> path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
>>
>>
>> Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or
>> Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input
>> transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL
>> should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
>>
>>
>> I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites
>> for an answer.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mick
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Hi Mick,

The problem by using the moon as a reflector could be made more efficient if placing a RF reflector just like the LASER reflectors already out there. Another way could be making a RF repeater like is done in communication satellites. It would probably be much cheaper to put up a communication satellite or to use one of the many already up there.

The surface of the moon isn't a good conductor (I guess) and it may even spread out the signal instead of reflecting it back to the transmitter like it is done with corner reflectors https://wiki2.org/en/Corner_reflector. This gives great loss of the received signal.

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :

 https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php

 Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
 

 Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
 

 I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites for an answer.
 

 

 Thanks,
 Mick

Hi Mick,

The RF beam must be as narrow as possible to not spread out the energy to places where it does no good. The guy I told about used a helical antenna. I don't know anything about how he did it and the power used. One way could be by using the predecessor of the LASER which was the MASER. This would transmit a thin beam of microwaves.

This Wikipedia article (https://wiki2.org/en/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication https://wiki2.org/en/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication) has a gallery of antennas used for earth moon earth communication. It tells that as low as 100W can be used when using digital signal processing.

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :

 Ole,
 Specifically the math is messing with my head.  Either I am misunderstanding / applying the math else according to FPL calculations antenna gain and dbW something the distance of the moon should not be feasible without millions of watts of transmitter power.
 Laserbounce is another story due to the reflectors and the fact a laser stays colimated enough not to disperse as quickly as does Rf.

 
 On 6/6/2018 3:04 PM, onielsen@... mailto:onielsen@... [EVGRAY] wrote:

   Hi Mick,
 
 The problem by using the moon as a reflector could be made more efficient if placing a RF reflector just like the LASER reflectors already out there. Another way could be making a RF repeater like is done in communication satellites. It would probably be much cheaper to put up a communication satellite or to use one of the many already up there.
 
 The surface of the moon isn't a good conductor (I guess) and it may even spread out the signal instead of reflecting it back to the transmitter like it is done with corner reflectors https://wiki2.org/en/Corner_reflector. This gives great loss of the received signal.
 
 Regards
 Ole

 
 
 ---In [email protected] mailto:[email protected], <mkjekyll@...> mailto:mkjekyll@... wrote :
 
 https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php

 Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
 
 
 Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
 
 
 I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites for an answer.
 
 
 

 Thanks,
 Mick

It might be the antenna moon bounce antennas are helix and directional were
radio station antennas are not just area coverage .not like a helix .
On Jun 6, 2018 6:07 PM, "[email protected] [EVGRAY]" <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Mick,
>
> The RF beam must be as narrow as possible to not spread out the energy to
> places where it does no good. The guy I told about used a helical antenna.
> I don't know anything about how he did it and the power used. One way could
> be by using the predecessor of the LASER which was the MASER. This would
> transmit a thin beam of microwaves.
>
> This Wikipedia article (https://wiki2.org/en/Earth%
> E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication) has a gallery of antennas used
> for earth moon earth communication. It tells that as low as 100W can be
> used when using digital signal processing.
>
> Regards
> Ole
>
>
> ---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :
>
> Ole,
>
> Specifically the math is messing with my head.  Either I am
> misunderstanding / applying the math else according to FPL calculations
> antenna gain and dbW something the distance of the moon should not be
> feasible without millions of watts of transmitter power.
>
> Laserbounce is another story due to the reflectors and the fact a laser
> stays colimated enough not to disperse as quickly as does Rf.
>
> On 6/6/2018 3:04 PM, onielsen@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Mick,
>
> The problem by using the moon as a reflector could be made more efficient
> if placing a RF reflector just like the LASER reflectors already out there.
> Another way could be making a RF repeater like is done in communication
> satellites. It would probably be much cheaper to put up a communication
> satellite or to use one of the many already up there.
>
> The surface of the moon isn't a good conductor (I guess) and it may even
> spread out the signal instead of reflecting it back to the transmitter like
> it is done with corner reflectors <https://wiki2.org/en/Corner_reflector>.
> This gives great loss of the received signal.
>
> Regards
> Ole
>
>
> ---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> <mkjekyll@...> wrote :
>
> https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/
> moonbounce-propagation-eme.php
>
> Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The path
> loss in best case scenarios is very high.
>
>
> Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector
> please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input transmitter
> when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL should require
> transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
>
>
> I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites for an
> answer.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mick
>
>
>
>
> 
>

Hi Mick and everyone
Joseph Farrell has lot of books he wrote and quite see interviews on youtube...i think he is right on in his ideas about the secret space program and Nazi tech and influences after ww2
Basically it goes that the Nazis tested a bomb and they gave tech to USA at end of war and Nazis had billions in plundered gold that the allies never got their hands on 
Then the Japanese also plundered all their countries conquered to much higher degree than the
All this loot stored in Philippines and after ww2 the usa took it all and kept it top secret and kept it off books and used finance top secret space shot over the decades
This not black budget but somethibg 100 times bigger in size and with it all they funded secret epace projets and they used this to  go to moon
Fakery people people see is meant to hide secret space projects not idea we never went to moon
Listen to some of his videos for more on this lots on youtube
Kone

Ole,

Thanks for the link.

As I understand it in theory a maser would make perfect sense but as far
as I am aware until very recently they required so much input power for
so little output they were just lab curiosities until the much more
efficient lasers were invented and became a useful tool.

Hi Warren,

Had a nice ionospheric bounce going. I assume you were using CW on the
ICOM correct or did you maintain a voice skip?  Cool rig what was the
input power?


On 6/6/2018 11:24 AM, Warren Keillor [email protected]
[EVGRAY] wrote:
>  
>
> Mick
>
> I don't know a lot about RF, though I am an advanced Canadian Ham.
> I managed to keep a schedule with another vessel, on 80 meters, that
> was in the South Pacific, while I was in the Eastern Caribean, using a
> hundred watt ICOM 735 and about a 65 ft long wire antenna strung in
> the rigging, with a Diwai mannual tuner.
> Time of day, sun spots, and Russian 1000watt rude fishing boats did
> play a factor on our weak signals.
> Cheers Warren
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct&c=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers&af_wl=ym&af_sub1=Internal&af_sub2=Global_YGrowth&af_sub3=EmailSignature>
>
>     On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 12:19 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY]
>     <[email protected]> wrote:
>      
>
>     https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php
>
>     Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio. 
>     The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
>
>
>     Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or
>     Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt
>     input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252
>     db PL should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
>
>
>     I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio
>     sites for an answer.
>
>
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     Mick
>
>
>
>

Hello Mick,
Ex RF NASA CDSCC Tidbinbilla Australia - 14 years.
CDSCC - Canberra Deep Space Communications Centre.
I read your question but fail to understand can you please elaborate on 
the problem.
The Deep Space Network (DSN) used small Dish Antennas for Moon Bounce 
but am unsure of the Transmitter ouput power but will search for the answer.
Have attached the size Dish we used.
Also, the DSN is now using a new antenna technology which is, instead of 
the Cone in the middle, is using a resonant cavity (Beam Waveguide) and 
these are now installed at Tidbinbilla DSS 34.

https://www.cdscc.nasa.gov/Pages/antennas.html

Wish to thank you all for your attention to this dialogue as you are all 
showing that we did go to the Moon as who was it then that set up the 
Laser Radar Reflectors on the Moon that all the Ham Radio Amateurs are 
now using for Moon Bounce since 1969?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_Laser_Ranging_experiment

I was sent to Parkes 64 meter Observatory antenna (Movie - 'The Dish') 
in late 1972 as we were prime for Apollo 17 video and was actually 
sitting in the control room while the download video was being recorded 
and viewed on a TV on the console.
Tidbinbilla 64m and Honeysuckle Creek 32m were prime and standby in 
Australia for all of the Spacecarft control sequences at the same time.
The pictures attached are as recent as October 2017 as these are from my 
own camera.
The Moon Bounce antenna shown was sited on the roof of the main building 
but has since been replaced but this one has a diameter of about 4'.
I await more information and hope this will help.

Smokey

On 7/06/2018 2:19 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>
> https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php
>
> Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The 
> path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
>
>
> Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector 
> please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input 
> transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL 
> should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
>
>
> I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites 
> for an answer.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mick
>
>
>
>

Mick, Google signals bounced off the dome.George

    On Thursday, 7 June 2018, 08:05:51 GMT+10, [email protected] [EVGRAY] <[email protected]> wrote:  
 
     
Hi Mick,

The problem by using the moon as a reflector could be made more efficient if placing a RF reflector just like the LASER reflectors already out there. Another way could be making a RF repeater like is done in communication satellites. It would probably be much cheaper to put up a communication satellite or to use one of the many already up there.

The surface of the moon isn't a good conductor (I guess) and it may even spread out the signal instead of reflecting it back to the transmitter like it is done with corner reflectors. This gives great loss of the received signal.

Regards
Ole



---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :


https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php


Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.




Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.




I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites for an answer.







Thanks,

Mick

Yow are missing monraker project antennas....

 https://www.google.com/search?q=moonraker+project+antenna+design&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGpbn5lcLbAhXJ3VMKHUYqCCAQ_AUICigB&biw=1024&bih=639 https://www.google.com/search?q=moonraker+project+antenna+design&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGpbn5lcLbAhXJ3VMKHUYqCCAQ_AUICigB&biw=1024&bih=639


(H)

MickThe 735 has had the diodes cut so that it can receive and transmit on anything from "DC to light" according to the tech who did the job on it.Since I am a licensed ham, and also an ocean going vessel, I used both single sideband ham and marine single side band, depending on my contacts, and propagation conditions.
100 watts used close to 20 amps of 12 volt DC power, though I never actually measured it.Cheers Warren
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 3:45 PM, Mick [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:       
 

Hi Warren,
 
Had a nice ionospheric bounce going. I assume you were using CW on the ICOM correct or did you maintain a voice skip?  Cool rig what was the input power?
 
 
 On 6/6/2018 11:24 AM, Warren Keillor [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
  
    
Mick
 I don't know a lot about RF, though I am an advanced Canadian Ham. I managed to keep a schedule with another vessel, on 80 meters, that was in the South Pacific, while I was in the Eastern Caribean, using a hundred watt ICOM 735 and about a 65 ft long wire antenna strung in the rigging, with a Diwai mannual tuner. Time of day, sun spots, and Russian 1000watt rude fishing boats did play a factor on our weak signals. Cheers Warren
 
 Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 12:19 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] <[email protected]> wrote:          
https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php
 
 
Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
 

 
 
Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL should require  transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
 

 
 
I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites for an answer.
 

 
 

 
 
Thanks,
 
Mick
 

 
 

 
       
   
 
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Hi Mick,

I don't know a lot about radio technology. But to be able to transmit at long distances with low power it is essential to not spread out the signal. Communication with the Voyager spacecrafts are done by using big disc antennas in both ends (transmitter and receiver). The Voyager 1 craft transmits with 23W and the signal take 10 hours of travel time between the antennas. Use a search engine to find the information or go to a library. Communication with the Voyager spacecrafts: https://science.howstuffworks.com/question431.htm. https://science.howstuffworks.com/question431.htm

They use a frequency range with low noise which allows for big amplification of the signal. The distance is from outside the solar system.

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :

 Ole,
 Thanks for the link.

 As I understand it in theory a maser would make perfect sense but as far as I am aware until very recently they required so much input power for so little output they were just lab curiosities until the much more efficient lasers were invented and became a useful tool.
 From your knowledge of electronics and RF math without tricks such as DSP's digging into the noise floor or special totally coherent non beam expanding collimated antennas what is the amount of power required to communicate reliably day in and day out 250k miles without repeaters or satellites, just two way with lets say a pair of 28dbi gain dishes?  I just want to see if my math is completely messed up.

 
 On 6/6/2018 4:06 PM, onielsen@... mailto:onielsen@... [EVGRAY] wrote:

   Hi Mick,
 
 The RF beam must be as narrow as possible to not spread out the energy to places where it does no good. The guy I told about used a helical antenna. I don't know anything about how he did it and the power used. One way could be by using the predecessor of the LASER which was the MASER. This would transmit a thin beam of microwaves.
 
 This Wikipedia article (https://wiki2.org/en/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication https://wiki2.org/en/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication) has a gallery of antennas used for earth moon earth communication. It tells that as low as 100W can be used when using digital signal processing.
 
 Regards
 Ole

 
 
 ---In [email protected] mailto:[email protected], <mkjekyll@...> mailto:mkjekyll@... wrote :
 
 Ole,
 Specifically the math is messing with my head.  Either I am misunderstanding / applying the math else according to FPL calculations antenna gain and dbW something the distance of the moon should not be feasible without millions of watts of transmitter power.
 Laserbounce is another story due to the reflectors and the fact a laser stays colimated enough not to disperse as quickly as does Rf.

 
 On 6/6/2018 3:04 PM, onielsen@... mailto:onielsen@... [EVGRAY] wrote:

   Hi Mick,
 
 The problem by using the moon as a reflector could be made more efficient if placing a RF reflector just like the LASER reflectors already out there. Another way could be making a RF repeater like is done in communication satellites. It would probably be much cheaper to put up a communication satellite or to use one of the many already up there.
 
 The surface of the moon isn't a good conductor (I guess) and it may even spread out the signal instead of reflecting it back to the transmitter like it is done with corner reflectors https://wiki2.org/en/Corner_reflector. This gives great loss of the received signal.
 
 Regards
 Ole

 
 
 ---In [email protected] mailto:[email protected], <mkjekyll@...> mailto:mkjekyll@... wrote :
 
 https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php

 Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
 
 
 Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
 
 
 I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites for an answer.
 
 
 

 Thanks,
 Mick

Hi Mick,

I don't know a lot about radio technology. But to be able to transmit at long distances with low power it is essential to not spread out the signal. Communication with the Voyager spacecrafts is done by using big disc antennas in both ends (transmitter and receiver). The Voyager 1 craft transmits with 23W and the signal takes 10 hours travel time between the antennas. Use a search engine to find the information or go to a library. Communication with the Voyager spacecrafts: https://science.howstuffworks.com/question431.htm. https://science.howstuffworks.com/question431.htm

They use a frequency range with low noise which allows for big amplification of the signal. The distance is from outside the solar system.

Regards
Ole 

---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :

 Ole,
 Thanks for the link.

 As I understand it in theory a maser would make perfect sense but as far as I am aware until very recently they required so much input power for so little output they were just lab curiosities until the much more efficient lasers were invented and became a useful tool.
 From your knowledge of electronics and RF math without tricks such as DSP's digging into the noise floor or special totally coherent non beam expanding collimated antennas what is the amount of power required to communicate reliably day in and day out 250k miles without repeaters or satellites, just two way with lets say a pair of 28dbi gain dishes?  I just want to see if my math is completely messed up.

 
 On 6/6/2018 4:06 PM, onielsen@... mailto:onielsen@... [EVGRAY] wrote:

   Hi Mick,
 
 The RF beam must be as narrow as possible to not spread out the energy to places where it does no good. The guy I told about used a helical antenna. I don't know anything about how he did it and the power used. One way could be by using the predecessor of the LASER which was the MASER. This would transmit a thin beam of microwaves.
 
 This Wikipedia article (https://wiki2.org/en/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication https://wiki2.org/en/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication) has a gallery of antennas used for earth moon earth communication. It tells that as low as 100W can be used when using digital signal processing.
 
 Regards
 Ole

 
 
 ---In [email protected] mailto:[email protected], <mkjekyll@...> mailto:mkjekyll@... wrote :
 
 Ole,
 Specifically the math is messing with my head.  Either I am misunderstanding / applying the math else according to FPL calculations antenna gain and dbW something the distance of the moon should not be feasible without millions of watts of transmitter power.
 Laserbounce is another story due to the reflectors and the fact a laser stays colimated enough not to disperse as quickly as does Rf.

 
 On 6/6/2018 3:04 PM, onielsen@... mailto:onielsen@... [EVGRAY] wrote:

   Hi Mick,
 
 The problem by using the moon as a reflector could be made more efficient if placing a RF reflector just like the LASER reflectors already out there. Another way could be making a RF repeater like is done in communication satellites. It would probably be much cheaper to put up a communication satellite or to use one of the many already up there.
 
 The surface of the moon isn't a good conductor (I guess) and it may even spread out the signal instead of reflecting it back to the transmitter like it is done with corner reflectors https://wiki2.org/en/Corner_reflector. This gives great loss of the received signal.
 
 Regards
 Ole

 
 
 ---In [email protected] mailto:[email protected], <mkjekyll@...> mailto:mkjekyll@... wrote :
 
 https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php

 Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce radio.  The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
 
 
 Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole or Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with 1000 watt input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N ratio and 252 db PL should require transmitters larger than AM radio stations.
 
 
 I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur radio sites for an answer.
 
 
 

 Thanks,
 Mick

Kone, 

 I listened to half of the first link, really great orator and well informed.
 

 I know it sounds campy but pretty sure Nazi's were on the moon in the 30s or 40s  The applo program was just a snowjob to collect shitloads of money for FX as the saucer tech already existed then, no reason to build silly kerosine rockets.  I was not aware until listening to the Ferrel link you sent Von Braun's main gig was as a high voltage plasma physics researcher.  I would like to find more data supporting this but if so it makes perfect sense a Nazi who already knew how to build saucers was using the smoke and mirrors of rockets to manipulate the public purse strings.  All this money could be put into the real space program.

Hi Mick
 There is the Nazi "Bell" project - very interesting stuff that also Joseph P Farrell talks about a lot and fully researched...
 Listen to more of JPFs talks you will learn lots you never were clued into..
 Kone

*Space Industry DSN Technical:
*DSN - Deep Space Network*
*The Space Industry used Masers for the downlinks in all of S/X/and K 
Band - X/K receive only (2.3 Ghz/8.4Ghz/24Ghz) and we had two for each 
frequency range - always a back up for every single function there were 
two units available including equipment in 19" racks in the control rooms.
*They were not curiosities but functional receivers of very weak distant 
signals.*
They were situated inside the Cones you see inside the Cassegrain 
Antennas and below the resonant chamber of the Beam Waveguide types.

Many times on shift I would take over a cooldown which could take up to 
24 hours and the temperature at cold was 269 Kelvin - 4 Kelvin above 
absolute and that is what the analogue pump meter on top of the drive 
unit was telling you - you do not use degrees when referring to Kelvin 
temperature.
I was also fortunate in maintaining the drive pumps as these were 
operating the full time the Maser was cooled.
The theory of cold here is in the use of a Joules Thompson Valve - 
liquid Nitrogen was used to initially cleanse and evacuate all system 
piping with a Kenny Pump and Helium was the final gas used in the Maser 
itself.
The system temperature of the Cone windows looking into Space was 26 Kelvin.
Transmitters used were 10kW and later at DSS 43 at 70 meter diameter 
upgrade we went to 50 Kw Klystron as did Goldstone and Madrid, Spain.
This was for the Voyagers I & II moving outside this planetary system 
but I am informed today that the real purpose of these two were to 
investigate Nibiru or Planet-X - probably triangulation with Earth 
itself to get a bearing.
Believe this is also the reason for the Vatican's Infrared antenna on 
Mount Graham in Arizona and also the NASA unit at the South Pole.
I am continually scanning our skies here in the South Outer Circle (SOC) 
using an IR lens on my Camera but no anomalies have been observed.

When I left in 1986, signal level of the Voyagers was about -172 dbm and 
that was near the limit of a 64 meter antenna and why an upgrade was 
made to 70 meter with increased transmitter power.
Before I left I was given the task of upgrading all of the RF equipment 
including the 1.5" Spiro lines which were also Nitrogen fed.
Any nick made on these when terminating or joining meant a signal loss 
and in such the job simply had to be perfect.
I was the only person ever given a Certificate for wire wrap without any 
training and was doing that job on the graveyard shift as tracking at 
that point was just too quiet for me.
The Computer boards measured about 15" square using pin connection 
technology and the reason for this was simple as the entire board could 
be upgraded with a rewire and a special small drill was used to wrap the 
wire on the Gold pins and once again the job had to be perfect.
Again, another precursor to your todays Computer.
Now I'm boasting.
At one stage for several years I was the only person in the Main room 
which was some 50 x 25 meters as by this time we had Computer control of 
most systems but not the Antenna nor the RF side with staff level 
dropping from about 24 running two stations, to 10 running 4.
All of our ground installations were being used as the guinea pig for 
your desktop Computers of today as we were given the 4040 series Intel 
chips in any new equpment to trial and any problems were listed in a 
special book.

I have attached a picture of UFOs outside a hangar in probably New 
Mexico and I date that at about 1953 due to the two Sabre Jets alongside.
Have also seen this same hangar with B52s outside (Nellis AFB?).

*A very strong suggestion here that the Astronauts were transferred onto 
UFOs for the final trip to the Moon and why there are some 
inconsistencies in this area time wise and why so much footage had to be 
manufactured in a Movie Studio that raised obvious questions.
All of this to deny you the 'black ops' side of the USA Military that 
have been using UFOs now for some near 70 years and courtesy of 15,000 
Nazi German scientists and technicians that were imported into the USA 
after Peenemunde was secured in 1945.
We did go to the Moon!
*
Having actually pushed the buttoms for a great deal of this space 
involvement, that is my take on why there are many inconsistencies.
We tracked the Helios I & II Solar Probes from 1975/76 (joint German ESA 
and NASA) for many years with no feedback from the Mission Control 
people which nagged me somewhat as also the RTLT (Round Trip Light Time) 
was always 16 minutes and I asked why when the Spacecraft was doing a 
loop around the Sun some 93million miles away.

*In reseaching this 'why', I came across the fact that there was an 
intentional time delay designed into the Spacecarft to make it look as 
if the Sun was that distance away when in fact it wasn't.

*This purpose delay was inserted between the one and two way modes.*
*This irked me into further ground research where my own calculations 
over some two years puts our Sun at only some 4,000 miles away.*
*Further research is ongoing here to refine that distance.*

*When you talk to any Spacecraft (SC) they are in a 1-way mode, downlink 
only and you ramp your uplink frequency through the SC rest frequency 
where you pull it into the two way mode, both now an uplink and downlink.
At this point the ground receivers would drop out of lock and you had to 
reacquire in the 2-way mode.
At this point you were able to transmit commands into the SC for 
telemetry science data/maintenance etc.
At transmitter off, the SC receivers would then drift back to their one 
way rest frequency.
I have the data here if anybody questions what I found.

Too much controversy here in all that I have done within the Space 
Industry and would appreciate any questions as they will be answered 
truthfully or to the best of my knowledge.
Respectfully.

Smokey

PS: EVGray:
The next person on this Forum that mentions the 'F' word will see me 
depart .
If you can't be civil and talk with respect to others then you don't 
deserve to be here.
Nothing is achieved when you talk like that including any 'Energy 
Synthesis'.
Moderation IS firmly required here.

Smokey

On 8/06/2018 5:57 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
>
> Hi Mick,
>
> I don't know a lot about radio technology. But to be able to transmit 
> at long distances with low power it is essential to not spread out the 
> signal. Communication with the Voyager spacecrafts is done by using 
> big disc antennas in both ends (transmitter and receiver). The Voyager 
> 1 craft transmits with 23W and the signal takes 10 hours travel time 
> between the antennas. Use a search engine to find the information or 
> go to a library. Communication with the Voyager spacecrafts: 
> https://science.howstuffworks.com/question431.htm. 
> <https://science.howstuffworks.com/question431.htm>
>
> They use a frequency range with low noise which allows for big 
> amplification of the signal. The distance is from outside the solar 
> system.
>
> Regards
> Ole
>
>
>
> ---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :
>
> Ole,
>
> Thanks for the link.
>
> As I understand it in theory a maser would make perfect sense but as 
> far as I am aware until very recently they required so much input 
> power for so little output they were just lab curiosities until the 
> much more efficient lasers were invented and became a useful tool.
>
> From your knowledge of electronics and RF math without tricks such as 
> DSP's digging into the noise floor or special totally coherent non 
> beam expanding collimated antennas what is the amount of power 
> required to communicate reliably day in and day out 250k miles without 
> repeaters or satellites, just two way with lets say a pair of 28dbi 
> gain dishes?  I just want to see if my math is completely messed up.
>
>
> On 6/6/2018 4:06 PM, onielsen@... <mailto:onielsen@...> [EVGRAY] wrote:
>
>>     Hi Mick,
>>
>>     The RF beam must be as narrow as possible to not spread out the
>>     energy to places where it does no good. The guy I told about used
>>     a helical antenna. I don't know anything about how he did it and
>>     the power used. One way could be by using the predecessor of the
>>     LASER which was the MASER. This would transmit a thin beam of
>>     microwaves.
>>
>>     This Wikipedia article
>>     (https://wiki2.org/en/Earth%E2%80%93Moon%E2%80%93Earth_communication)
>>     has a gallery of antennas used for earth moon earth
>>     communication. It tells that as low as 100W can be used when
>>     using digital signal processing.
>>
>>     Regards
>>     Ole
>>
>>
>>
>>     ---In [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>,
>>     <mkjekyll@...> <mailto:mkjekyll@...> wrote :
>>
>>     Ole,
>>
>>     Specifically the math is messing with my head.  Either I am
>>     misunderstanding / applying the math else according to FPL
>>     calculations antenna gain and dbW something the distance of the
>>     moon should not be feasible without millions of watts of
>>     transmitter power.
>>
>>     Laserbounce is another story due to the reflectors and the fact a
>>     laser stays colimated enough not to disperse as quickly as does Rf.
>>
>>
>>     On 6/6/2018 3:04 PM, onielsen@... <mailto:onielsen@...> [EVGRAY]
>>     wrote:
>>
>>>         Hi Mick,
>>>
>>>         The problem by using the moon as a reflector could be made
>>>         more efficient if placing a RF reflector just like the LASER
>>>         reflectors already out there. Another way could be making a
>>>         RF repeater like is done in communication satellites. It
>>>         would probably be much cheaper to put up a communication
>>>         satellite or to use one of the many already up there.
>>>
>>>         The surface of the moon isn't a good conductor (I guess) and
>>>         it may even spread out the signal instead of reflecting it
>>>         back to the transmitter like it is done withcorner
>>>         reflectors <https://wiki2.org/en/Corner_reflector>. This
>>>         gives great loss of the received signal.
>>>
>>>         Regards
>>>         Ole
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         ---In [email protected]
>>>         <mailto:[email protected]>, <mkjekyll@...>
>>>         <mailto:mkjekyll@...> wrote :
>>>
>>>         https://www.electronics-notes.com/articles/ham_radio/amateur-propagation/moonbounce-propagation-eme.php
>>>
>>>         Here is a link for ham radio folk about EME or moonbounce
>>>         radio.  The path loss in best case scenarios is very high.
>>>
>>>
>>>         Can someone who knows more RF electronics theory such as Ole
>>>         or Hector please comment as to how this is overcome with
>>>         1000 watt input transmitter when the maximum theoretical S/N
>>>         ratio and 252 db PL should require transmitters larger than
>>>         AM radio stations.
>>>
>>>
>>>         I must be missing something.  Also checking the amateur
>>>         radio sites for an answer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         Thanks,
>>>
>>>         Mick
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

Smokey, 

 Cool job you had, got to play with all the toys.  Intel story very interesting.
 

 Ok so we have a similar arguing point that in no way kerosene rockets were used to get earth men to the moon and back for the whole of the trip.
 

 Are you aware of a maser being used as a transmitter on a spacecraft, or just on the receiving end?
 

 From what I have read the ability for a maser to transmit at one watt or above requires many hundreds or thousands of times the input power.  As a receiver detector this is likely a non-issue.  You still needed large pumps and much ancillary equipment to cool the units.  Since it is neither cool nor warm in space cooling systems would still be a requirement in the vacuum of space as empty space is missing the scalar function of temperature.