Re: [EVGRAY] Triple thick BiTT

Hi Doug, Warren  guys,
After making many of these BITT things,
For me in practice, the normal Back emf or Lenz effect, where input
impedance drops with loading the output... is still very much alive and
well in this device.

As you rightly say Doug..... the magnetic paths don't know the difference
between the Lenz flux or input Flux.
The only aspect of this is that those additional flux paths between the
output cores ........ (which Thane Heinz originally thought of adding).
They bypass the input core altogether taking flux directly between the
output cores.

We should be able to see if this additional path between output coils
affects the input, by monitoring the input volts & amps, whilst opening the
two halves of the output toroid.
Breaking the extra path.... I'll give it a go & let you know.

Warren, I don't exactly know the answer to your question, I think Ole might
know.
Flux lines don't like to go around sharp corners and if flux lines path
length is doubled then the force they exert is reduced to 25% of original
value.
Maybe that's why?

But there's other stuff which seems to defy the rules like in case of
original MEG.
Instead of the flux in central leg of core dividing equally between each
side as I would think .....the flux flips entirely  from one side to the
other on applying impulse.
It is Bi Stable like a bistable flip flop circuit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no50_5iSr2Y

Gerry





On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 4:16 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Gerry
>
> OK thanks for the explanations - with the BiTT, I saw both with Naudin,
> and also with KK that they did experiments driving them with DC....so
> unless this is really DC alternating into center-tapped primary (which KK
> did in his 4W to 8W video)  then I would think there is not the 180 degrees
> out of phase thing happening, (although now the collapsing field energy
> going backwards......which has me thinking maybe what we are looking for is
> combination "coherence" of the 180degree timing of opposite polarity AND
> the collapsing field! ...just thinking)
>
>
> If 180 degrees out of phase then now I can see how there will be that
> pathway backwards for the "lenz" as you call it, the "backemf" as I call
> it....
>
>
> But again WHY would there be a split in the lenz/backemf from the forward
> current? Why would it not just stay firmly attached to the forward current
> as it inherently by nature is?
>
> Maybe there is no split and this is my ridiculous idea! I
>
>
> don't know but if there is not, and it is the 180 degrees out of phase
> event, then it would seem only the pos sine and neg sine would split, (and
> go its own way back to opposite secondary) not the lenz/backemf itself....
>
>
> Maybe because the lenz/backemf IS already backwards,  (or is trying to) it
> dominates the return path leg and sort of consumes any forward currents on
> its way back? Maybe this is what happens
>
>
> Sorry just rambling on
>
> ciao
>
> Kone
>
>
> 
>

Hi Gerry
 here is link I am sure you have seen where Thane Karl HEinz himself explains the BiTT transformer to MIT university (something like that)
 My big question is WHY does the backemf flux magically seperate itself from the forward flix, and head backwards to the opposite secondary winding??
 why why why...I don't know all I can think of is there is a collision that knocks it loose (simpleton explanation)
 IF it works it works we do not have to ask why but so far I have built 5 or 6 of these things and have not seen any results like in KK videao - maybe I need to first before anything resonate that core at some harmonic to get some ferroresonacne happening....maybe in that state the back currents will separate and go their own way from the forward I don't know.....
 Also that florist wire BiTT core I posted photos of, today I want to wind some coils and wanted 240V on primary, and about 24V on secondary so took apart a transformer I have now that kicks 240V down to 12V and it was 780ohms and 5.2ohms so started to wind very thin wire on the primary until I got to 780 ohms and ut was ridiculous how the heck can I possibly wind all that wire through those square gaps each side??? Maybe 50 strands of wire in parallel and connect all inseries....anyways going to give up on that idea I think...
 I need another desigh where I can disassemble the core lenths under the winds, put in electric drill and wind them up then reassemble...
 here is the at MIT BiTT link:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdL5EFkfxBQ&t=158s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdL5EFkfxBQ&t=158s
 ciaoKone

Hi Warren
 Here is good 3D computer imaging of the Flynn motor construction...very similar to Muller motor I think with flat rotor of magnets coils on each side....
 :
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwFyou5404Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwFyou5404Y

Hi Doug,
Yes you're right I have seen this one before ..have re watched it now
though.
Also I can see your question more clearly & makes me question my own
understanding of this design.
The Lenz or Back emf flux always opposes the field that created it, so
direction of Back flux is always opposite to the input flux.

See in video from the direction of the arrows the input flux splits into 2
streams & circulates from the top of the input coil, (considering both
NORTH poles frozen in time)
back to the bottom of the input coil on both sides of the trannie, CCW and
CW.
The input coil supplies the mmf magnetising force for this to happen.

Without any loads applied 100% of this input flux circulates right there on
its own 50% on left side 50% on right side, no Back flux is generated.
It's only when we apply our load that things start to get complicated.

Now when loads are applied, Back flux starts generating it's own North
pole, at the top of both output coils, flux from this looks for someway to
get back to South pole on the other side of its own coil.
A return path in other words
Back flux "sees" 2 main paths though Thane shows 3.
Following the arrows around from 5:53 seconds on the video he talks about
high path and a very high path and a low path.

He's referring to the reluctances of each path "High"  is high reluctance
low permeabilty path .... "low" is the opposite ...the easy path.

So this total Back flux splits itself between these paths proportionate to
their "easiness to follow" & from this some must definitely find it's way
back to the input.

However I must now admit both Heinze Thane's & Naudin's JLN replications
show a reduction in current when loaded whilst mine are quite the opposite.

Guess I need to pull finger out & go back to see where I'm going wrong?

Gerry

On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 5:15 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Gerry
>
> here is link I am sure you have seen where Thane Karl HEinz himself
> explains the BiTT transformer to MIT university (something like that)
>
> My big question is WHY does the backemf flux magically seperate itself
> from the forward flix, and head backwards to the opposite secondary
> winding??
>
> why why why...I don't know all I can think of is there is a collision that
> knocks it loose (simpleton explanation)
>
> IF it works it works we do not have to ask why but so far I have built 5
> or 6 of these things and have not seen any results like in KK videao -
> maybe I need to first before anything resonate that core at some harmonic
> to get some ferroresonacne happening....maybe in that state the back
> currents will separate and go their own way from the forward I don't
> know.....
>
> Also that florist wire BiTT core I posted photos of, today I want to wind
> some coils and wanted 240V on primary, and about 24V on secondary so took
> apart a transformer I have now that kicks 240V down to 12V and it was
> 780ohms and 5.2ohms so started to wind very thin wire on the primary until
> I got to 780 ohms and ut was ridiculous how the heck can I possibly wind
> all that wire through those square gaps each side??? Maybe 50 strands of
> wire in parallel and connect all inseries....anyways going to give up on
> that idea I think...
>
> I need another desigh where I can disassemble the core lenths under the
> winds, put in electric drill and wind them up then reassemble...
>
> here is the at MIT BiTT link:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdL5EFkfxBQ&t=158s
>
> ciaoKone
>
>
>
>
> 
>

Hi Doug,
Thanks for questioning me more closely as now I can see why my own BITT
attempts haven't worked.
Though I don't know if it answers your questions though.

I have been using twin input toroids with  common input winding throughout
all the different versions which is quite wrong.
It seems to be very important to keep that straight section of flux path
straight across the top of the input coils.
Otherwise there's going to be no cancellation of flux where the Back flux
from the Left and Right meet each other.

No wonder I keep getting Lenz effect, if the 2 Back fluxes curve down and
enter the top of the input coil together, they'll add together reducing the
input impedance markedly.
Back to the bench for me.
Gerry

Gerry



On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Gerry <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Doug,
> Yes you're right I have seen this one before ..have re watched it now
> though.
> Also I can see your question more clearly & makes me question my own
> understanding of this design.
> The Lenz or Back emf flux always opposes the field that created it, so
> direction of Back flux is always opposite to the input flux.
>
> See in video from the direction of the arrows the input flux splits into 2
> streams & circulates from the top of the input coil, (considering both
> NORTH poles frozen in time)
> back to the bottom of the input coil on both sides of the trannie, CCW and
> CW.
> The input coil supplies the mmf magnetising force for this to happen.
>
> Without any loads applied 100% of this input flux circulates right there
> on its own 50% on left side 50% on right side, no Back flux is generated.
> It's only when we apply our load that things start to get complicated.
>
> Now when loads are applied, Back flux starts generating it's own North
> pole, at the top of both output coils, flux from this looks for someway to
> get back to South pole on the other side of its own coil.
> A return path in other words
> Back flux "sees" 2 main paths though Thane shows 3.
> Following the arrows around from 5:53 seconds on the video he talks about
> high path and a very high path and a low path.
>
> He's referring to the reluctances of each path "High"  is high reluctance
> low permeabilty path .... "low" is the opposite ...the easy path.
>
> So this total Back flux splits itself between these paths proportionate to
> their "easiness to follow" & from this some must definitely find it's way
> back to the input.
>
> However I must now admit both Heinze Thane's & Naudin's JLN replications
> show a reduction in current when loaded whilst mine are quite the opposite.
>
> Guess I need to pull finger out & go back to see where I'm going wrong?
>
> Gerry
>
> On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 5:15 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] <
> [email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Hi Gerry
>>
>> here is link I am sure you have seen where Thane Karl HEinz himself
>> explains the BiTT transformer to MIT university (something like that)
>>
>> My big question is WHY does the backemf flux magically seperate itself
>> from the forward flix, and head backwards to the opposite secondary
>> winding??
>>
>> why why why...I don't know all I can think of is there is a collision
>> that knocks it loose (simpleton explanation)
>>
>> IF it works it works we do not have to ask why but so far I have built 5
>> or 6 of these things and have not seen any results like in KK videao -
>> maybe I need to first before anything resonate that core at some harmonic
>> to get some ferroresonacne happening....maybe in that state the back
>> currents will separate and go their own way from the forward I don't
>> know.....
>>
>> Also that florist wire BiTT core I posted photos of, today I want to wind
>> some coils and wanted 240V on primary, and about 24V on secondary so took
>> apart a transformer I have now that kicks 240V down to 12V and it was
>> 780ohms and 5.2ohms so started to wind very thin wire on the primary until
>> I got to 780 ohms and ut was ridiculous how the heck can I possibly wind
>> all that wire through those square gaps each side??? Maybe 50 strands of
>> wire in parallel and connect all inseries....anyways going to give up on
>> that idea I think...
>>
>> I need another desigh where I can disassemble the core lenths under the
>> winds, put in electric drill and wind them up then reassemble...
>>
>> here is the at MIT BiTT link:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdL5EFkfxBQ&t=158s
>>
>> ciaoKone
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>
>

Hi Gerry
 OK trying to understand this:
 "I have been using twin input toroids with  common input winding throughout all the different versions which is quite wrong."
 

 So do you mean you do not have a single core leg in middle, that the primary wind wraps around, and instead have two core legs there, with the two windings on each leg connected in series or  parallel?  And this is your center primary wind?  (soow two core legs in middle?)
 If so, then this more like side-by-side regular transformers, and flux will not be re routed into opposite primary since it will follow path of least resistance which will be right back to its respective primary...
 Still not sure even in the correct design, why backemf flux would route to opposite primary, although I am getting to understand better in corresponding with you, as right now I will assume the primary has resistance when load is applied to secondaries, BUT instead of "entering" the primary, and reflecting back as extra primary draw, now the backemf flux sees and feels the primary resistance and decides to go other route instead, since the resistance is lower! 
 And that lower resistance is the path along the top and bottom extra bars stretching from oine secondary to the other so now there is ADDITIVE power in secondaries, rather that power reflected back into primary.
 ciaoKone

Hi Gerry
 I like Bill Alek personally, I  met him at a conference in Dallas, BUT I have friend  who recently gave/invested $3000 USD to BA, plus my friend hung around with him for awhile too......My friend finally asked him please please please just show me one watt of overunity that is all I ask, and Bill Alek could not do it for him with his special transformer and the phase shifting and my frieid finally said  fuck it  he has got nothing but theory that "it might be" 
 So my advice is do not copy the Auroratek Bill Alek transformer or its patent,as far as I know it just does not work and nobody can replicate it too since does not work in first place.
 

 Three phase transformers should be able to be modified into BiTT transformers, maybe get two, chop up second for the top and bottom big flux legs...ferrite tube with steel bolts through them and nuts on end is good way, as you can wind up coils disassembled easily such as core-legs in drill and wind up fast lots of wire, then bolt it all together tight....
 Winding core legs is big problem with transformer assembled - you can make a curved-stick, wind up all the winds you plan on winding onto core leg onto this stick, and run this stick through and out  by hand ,the  transformer openings between the legs this will take awhile but is doable also multifilar winds are good idea then hook in series or parallel afterwards gives you options of the impedance choice for winds too....
 

 ciaoKonehead

DougInsread of winding directly on the core, use a plastic sleave bobbin, or spool, much like kind that come with Metglas transformer blanks, those armature cores for winding your own transformers.The cores are like two letter "C"s that couple together and the plastic sleaves fit over the joints. Using a little imagination one can make non magnetic c clamps to keep the two halfs together so you can experiment with various coil combinations.The Metglas is good for a large range of frequencies.Now that Hitachi owns Metglas it is much better priced, I believe.Once I learned what it looks like, I have found it in surplus electronic stores as transformers in various power supplies.Cheers Warren

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 2:34 AM, [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:       


Hi Gerry

I like Bill Alek personally, I  met him at a conference in Dallas, BUT I have friend  who recently gave/invested $3000 USD to BA, plus my friend hung around with him for awhile too......My friend finally asked him please please please just show me one watt of overunity that is all I ask, and Bill Alek could not do it for him with his special transformer and the phase shifting and my frieid finally said  fuck it  he has got nothing but theory that "it might be" 

So my advice is do not copy the Auroratek Bill Alek transformer or its patent,as far as I know it just does not work and nobody can replicate it too since does not work in first place.




Three phase transformers should be able to be modified into BiTT transformers, maybe get two, chop up second for the top and bottom big flux legs...ferrite tube with steel bolts through them and nuts on end is good way, as you can wind up coils disassembled easily such as core-legs in drill and wind up fast lots of wire, then bolt it all together tight....

Winding core legs is big problem with transformer assembled - you can make a curved-stick, wind up all the winds you plan on winding onto core leg onto this stick, and run this stick through and out  by hand ,the  transformer openings between the legs this will take awhile but is doable also multifilar winds are good idea then hook in series or parallel afterwards gives you options of the impedance choice for winds too....




ciaoKonehead

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Hi Doug
Remember the flux is just like current travelling both ways through a
resistor simultaneous,
If we have 1 amp going left to right and 1 amp going right to left then the
total effective current (or flux) adds to zero, so none left to go back
into input coil.

In the Auratek's picture it shows same layout as my original attempts where
I too had been using toroids.
I cant find a pic of mine just now.

See attachments for understanding better.
Yes your assumptions pretty well spot on Doug.

Input transformer is just a standard transformer in my pic there below.

I think we might be able to see some benefits from modifying a normal
transformer....just removing secondary  and rewinding a pair of secondaries
on the outside legs.
Even without the external low reluctance path.  Just have to remember
there's only half the input flux in each outside leg so more turns needed.
Along with maybe air gap in central 'I' part of the core.

Gerry



On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 5:57 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Gerry
>
> OK trying to understand this:
>
> "I have been using twin input toroids with  common input winding
> throughout all the different versions which is quite wrong."
>
>
> So do you mean you do not have a single core leg in middle, that the
> primary wind wraps around, and instead have two core legs there, with the
> two windings on each leg connected in series or  parallel?  And this is
> your center primary wind?  (soow two core legs in middle?)
>
> If so, then this more like side-by-side regular transformers, and flux
> will not be re routed into opposite primary since it will follow path of
> least resistance which will be right back to its respective primary...
>
> Still not sure even in the correct design, why backemf flux would route to
> opposite primary, although I am getting to understand better in
> corresponding with you, as right now I will assume the primary has
> resistance when load is applied to secondaries, BUT instead of "entering"
> the primary, and reflecting back as extra primary draw, now the backemf
> flux sees and feels the primary resistance and decides to go other route
> instead, since the resistance is lower!
>
> And that lower resistance is the path along the top and bottom extra bars
> stretching from oine secondary to the other so now there is ADDITIVE power
> in secondaries, rather that power reflected back into primary.
>
> ciaoKone
>
>
> 
>

Hi Doug,
A friend introduced me to Bill Alec via email & I asked for some advice, as
I was trying to replicate his Auroratek design.
He more or less told me to 'get stuffed' , can't says I blame him, when
money's involved we tend to change personalities a bit.

There is something interesting to do with 3 phase transformers or 3  phase
reactors & that is ...resonate them as parametric amplifier.
The circuit is very simple just need a full wave bridge and also 3 phase
speed controller.
Have attached a jpg here.
Here is YouTube link, sorry it's Russian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Rn4_uaVak

Using say 50Hz mains frequency ripple occurs at double the frequency as per
circuit (100Hz polarized pulses).
The outer legs of the 3 phase traffo become magnetized the alternately
"modify the centre leg inductance" by pumping at twice the input frequency.

Not sure exactly how to take advantage of the resultant extra energy.
Gerry

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On Sat, Jan 27, 2018 at 6:34 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Gerry
>
> I like Bill Alek personally, I  met him at a conference in Dallas, BUT I
> have friend  who recently gave/invested $3000 USD to BA, plus my friend
> hung around with him for awhile too......My friend finally asked him please
> please please just show me one watt of overunity that is all I ask, and
> Bill Alek could not do it for him with his special transformer and the
> phase shifting and my frieid finally said  fuck it  he has got nothing but
> theory that "it might be"
>
> So my advice is do not copy the Auroratek Bill Alek transformer or its
> patent,as far as I know it just does not work and nobody can replicate it
> too since does not work in first place.
>
>
> Three phase transformers should be able to be modified into BiTT
> transformers, maybe get two, chop up second for the top and bottom big flux
> legs...ferrite tube with steel bolts through them and nuts on end is good
> way, as you can wind up coils disassembled easily such as core-legs in
> drill and wind up fast lots of wire, then bolt it all together tight....
>
> Winding core legs is big problem with transformer assembled - you can make
> a curved-stick, wind up all the winds you plan on winding onto core leg
> onto this stick, and run this stick through and out  by hand ,the
>  transformer openings between the legs this will take awhile but is doable
> also multifilar winds are good idea then hook in series or parallel
> afterwards gives you options of the impedance choice for winds too....
>
>
> ciaoKonehead
>
>
> 
>