Questions about rotor inside common genset like in Indonesian video

Hi all

In attachments are two photos of the insides of one of those 750W usually gas-engine powered gensets just like the guy from Indonesia has on the right side of his motor generator.

I see the slip rings, I see the 2-pole rotor (so this will take 3600rpm to make 60hz) and inside the plastic housing on one end of the rotor is a diode (actually there are two) and these connect to the ins and outs of the coils somehow....I would think these diodes are sort of "blocking" (big zener?)diodes so that the generator will not produce power until it gets to speed of 3600rpm and makes the 120VAC  or the 220VAC and only then will it let power pass through, so this is a feature to make sure the generator only produces 120VAC and nothing less, especially during start up or warm up and a load is attached to the generator....


Is this correct about those diodes??? Or are they something else?


The other question is about that little ceramic magnet imbedded into the rotor you can see in the photo in attachments....so what exactly is this for??

To help magnetize the core a little bit and give it some polarity perhaps?

Why is there only one?

Is there a hall effect somewhere on stator or small coil that this reacts too and serves as some sort of over-speed governor? (guessing)


Maybe it helps smooth out the sinewave somehow? (but why only one?)


Anyways this is exactly what is inside the Indonesian genset seen in video to the right of the looping motor generator....


perhaps he put in his own rotor of permanent magnets and that is part of it all???

If anyone can answer my questions it would be appreciated...I hope you can all see the photo attachments...

ciaoKone

DougYou have some good questionsLet me give it a try.First, a questionAre there field coils?What creates the magnetic fields these two coils on the armature act against?What energizes those electromagnets in the field?Perhaps the field electromagnets need dc to operate? The diodes rectify some AC. The cheap little ceramic magnet gets the whole proccess started. Interesting!Then again, you need a spark to fire that little two stroke gas engine.Wow too much design and brain power going into that little gen set. It makes my head hurt.What we see here is a roomfull of brilliant underemployed engineers with not enough to do, and no deadlines to get out the finished product. Only in China?In Canada, we work on a shoe string to meet rush orders, or get laid off, when there is no work.
My next questionWhat are we trying to achieve?I want a self runner too.How is a permanent magnet DC motor not good? The one on my ship's drill press, hooked to a puny 300 watt inverter, 500 watt variac, bridge rectifier and a double pole, double throw switch for reversing can drill 1" holes through stainless steel, using Silver and Demming drill bits, without blowing the inverter breaker. The drive belt might slip, but that motor doesn't stall.This is a shitty little, cheap Chinese drill press, that the 120 volt, squirrel cage motor, it came with, wouldn't even twitch the chuck, running off the 12 volt dc to 120 volt ac, 300 watt inverter, in the boat workshop.My big Japanese Kira drill press in my studio has a bitch of a time drilling stainless steel, even though it is a heavy duty piece of equipment.It may be that I can slow down the dc motor and get an even better tune to the cutting speed, but what does that say about the dc motor? They have torque to burn, yet run cool.My wife gave me a professional Dewalt cordless drill for Christmas, the drill and impact combo kit. I frigging love them, and would have never bought them for myself. I can not believe the power, and how long the quick charging batteries last.My point: super magnets!The dc motors with super magnet fields are crazy good.We need big permanent magnet motors with super magnet fields.We are farting around with less!I think the car guys are getting them all, and we are not getting to play with them yet.Just my thoughtsCheers WarrenSent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 7:09 AM, 'Douglas L. Konzen' [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:       


Hi all


In attachments are two photos of the insides of one of those 750W usually gas-engine powered gensets just like the guy from Indonesia has on the right side of his motor generator.

I see the slip rings, I see the 2-pole rotor (so this will take 3600rpm to make 60hz) and inside the plastic housing on one end of the rotor is a diode (actually there are two) and these connect to the ins and outs of the coils somehow....I would think these diodes are sort of "blocking" (big zener?)diodes so that the generator will not produce power until it gets to speed of 3600rpm and makes the 120VAC  or the 220VAC and only then will it let power pass through, so this is a feature to make sure the generator only produces 120VAC and nothing less, especially during start up or warm up and a load is attached to the generator....




Is this correct about those diodes??? Or are they something else?




The other question is about that little ceramic magnet imbedded into the rotor you can see in the photo in attachments....so what exactly is this for??

To help magnetize the core a little bit and give it some polarity perhaps?

Why is there only one?

Is there a hall effect somewhere on stator or small coil that this reacts too and serves as some sort of over-speed governor? (guessing)




Maybe it helps smooth out the sinewave somehow? (but why only one?)




Anyways this is exactly what is inside the Indonesian genset seen in video to the right of the looping motor generator....




perhaps he put in his own rotor of permanent magnets and that is part of it all???

If anyone can answer my questions it would be appreciated...I hope you can all see the photo attachments...

ciaoKone



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Hi Kone,

As the rotor has to make a rotating magnetic field the diode is probably for DC magnetizing the core. The small permanent magnet is for making the generator self-magnetizing. The small magnetic field is enough for getting the current started. After that the field is amplified by the current going through the rotor coil. This way it starts generating without needing a battery like car alternators.

In a car alternator https://wiki2.org/en/Alternator an electronic regulator is used to DC magnetize the rotor by controlling the current for regulating the output voltage.

The image is taken from here: http://www.tb-training.co.uk/marinee08.html http://www.tb-training.co.uk/marinee08.html

The Indonesian device must have something for controlling the speed to prevent it from keep on speeding up until destruction. When he says it isn't simple this can be because of rewinding or some kind of regulator etc.

The next image is showing the regulator in the top left corner.

This image is pasted from here: http://nolanwebdev.com/2718/oQ6e-2733/ http://nolanwebdev.com/2718/oQ6e-2733/

Perhaps the Indonesian guy is taking the voltage directly from the stator coils (AC output) and has the regulator substituted by one that monitors the frequency as well as the voltage. Or the motor has a speed controller to keep the frequency constant. But why it is over-unity is still a question. Is it the motor or the generator or the combination that makes it OU?

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <konehead@...> wrote :

 Hi all
 
 In attachments are two photos of the insides of one of those 750W usually gas-engine powered gensets just like the guy from Indonesia has on the right side of his motor generator.
 I see the slip rings, I see the 2-pole rotor (so this will take 3600rpm to make 60hz) and inside the plastic housing on one end of the rotor is a diode (actually there are two) and these connect to the ins and outs of the coils somehow....I would think these diodes are sort of "blocking" (big zener?)diodes so that the generator will not produce power until it gets to speed of 3600rpm and makes the 120VAC  or the 220VAC and only then will it let power pass through, so this is a feature to make sure the generator only produces 120VAC and nothing less, especially during start up or warm up and a load is attached to the generator....
 

 Is this correct about those diodes??? Or are they something else?
 

 The other question is about that little ceramic magnet imbedded into the rotor you can see in the photo in attachments....so what exactly is this for??
 To help magnetize the core a little bit and give it some polarity perhaps?
 Why is there only one?
 Is there a hall effect somewhere on stator or small coil that this reacts too and serves as some sort of over-speed governor? (guessing)
 

 Maybe it helps smooth out the sinewave somehow? (but why only one?)
 

 Anyways this is exactly what is inside the Indonesian genset seen in video to the right of the looping motor generator....
 

 perhaps he put in his own rotor of permanent magnets and that is part of it all???
 If anyone can answer my questions it would be appreciated...I hope you can all see the photo attachments...
 ciaoKone

Hi Warren
 yes I think the field (rotor) coils need to be DC in order for the spin to make AC against the armature (stator) coils....
 I am not sure either where that field (excite) power comes from!
 I think there are extra windings within the rotor coil windings, made especially for that, and the diodes to make DC are also in the rotor coil windings...
 The little magnet imbedded in rotor is just there to make sure the rotor core has residual magnetism always at least this is what I think...
 ciaoKone

Hi Ole
 Thanks for all the info you posted you are the greatest!
 I don't know why it is OU 
 I will bet the power into the motor is around 200VDC and this makes the motor very powerful, and it over-powers the lenz law braking but "I don't know" 
 Maybe the rotor in the genset is modified to be permanent magnet, another idea....
 ciao
 Kone

Hi Warren ,                           the brushes are to  feed rotor to make it an electromagnet   that spins inside genertaing / field coils . Normally there is enough  residual magnetism in rotor to generate power in field coils to  feed  rotor to start  process going . However  sometimes  rotor will loose resuidual  magnetism  and will need to be flashed with 12v battery to get  magnetism back into rotor .
 

 

                                                                         Joe.

HiGerry
 I guess there are actually two small ceramic magnets in the rotor facing N and S and they must be there to keep residual magnetism in the rotor, so it does not need to be"flashed" if generator sits for long time, that's what I think anyways.
 I understand what you are thinking and the angular position of motor poles to generator poles being important....
 Still I don't know enough either still cannot decide which is motor which is generator if it is fake or not too is another decision about it all too...
 ciaoKone

Hi Doug,
I don't think they would be series connected zener diodes because it would
limit the output current to the max current & wattage the zeners could
handle.
In my Onan generator at startup they intially  'flash" the stator to get
some residual magnetism to make the rotor start generating.
Maybe the ceramic magnet does this function?

In video:
There is no gearing between the prime mover and generator, so both the
rotors turn one for one in terms of degrees per rev.
Imagine if pole count is identical,  1) generator rotor experiences
repulsion deceleration going toward the pole and acceleration away from it.
Whilst motor (prime mover) experiences acceleration toward pole and
deceleration away from pole.

By adjusting the prime mover's angular position against the generator it
may be possible to cancel these two forces out to some extent as they are
opposite forces.

Wish I could help more but don't know enough.
Gerry




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On Sun, Feb 25, 2018 at 11:09 PM, 'Douglas L. Konzen' [email protected]
[EVGRAY] <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi all
>
>
> In attachments are two photos of the insides of one of those 750W usually
> gas-engine powered gensets just like the guy from Indonesia has on the
> right side of his motor generator.
>
> I see the slip rings, I see the 2-pole rotor (so this will take 3600rpm to
> make 60hz) and inside the plastic housing on one end of the rotor is a
> diode (actually there are two) and these connect to the ins and outs of the
> coils somehow....I would think these diodes are sort of "blocking" (big
> zener?)diodes so that the generator will not produce power until it gets to
> speed of 3600rpm and makes the 120VAC  or the 220VAC and only then will it
> let power pass through, so this is a feature to make sure the generator
> only produces 120VAC and nothing less, especially during start up or warm
> up and a load is attached to the generator....
>
>
> Is this correct about those diodes??? Or are they something else?
>
>
> The other question is about that little ceramic magnet imbedded into the
> rotor you can see in the photo in attachments....so what exactly is this
> for??
>
> To help magnetize the core a little bit and give it some polarity perhaps?
>
> Why is there only one?
>
> Is there a hall effect somewhere on stator or small coil that this reacts
> too and serves as some sort of over-speed governor? (guessing)
>
>
> Maybe it helps smooth out the sinewave somehow? (but why only one?)
>
>
> Anyways this is exactly what is inside the Indonesian genset seen in video
> to the right of the looping motor generator....
>
>
> perhaps he put in his own rotor of permanent magnets and that is part of
> it all???
>
> If anyone can answer my questions it would be appreciated...I hope you can
> all see the photo attachments...
>
> ciaoKone
>
>
>
>
> 
>