AW: Re: Aw: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Re: AW: [EVGRAY] Re: Kone & Hector, you guys finally did it!

Hi Ole, I just could do a simple little power measurement. Both transformers take up 32 to 33 watts active power at 230V operating voltage. the PF is 0.27 to 0.28 for both transformers. Greetings Sven

Von Samsung Mobile gesendet

-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: "[email protected] [EVGRAY]" <[email protected]> 
Datum:26.01.2018  20:51  (GMT+01:00) 
An: [email protected] 
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re:  Re: AW: [EVGRAY] Re: Kone & Hector, you guys finally did it! 

Hi Sven,

When you say abused is the insulation all right? If a transformer has a short in a winding this heats the transformer and is seen as active load. Perhaps a scope reading of the voltage and current is needed to see if the load is active or reactive. At no load the voltage and current ought to be shifted by 90 degrees. If putting the readings in x-y mode the display should show a non-tilted ellipse for reactive power. Any tilt is caused by resistance and is active (real) power.

When active power is taken from a transformer the inductance of the primary is reduced by the canceling flux from the secondary.

Regards
Ole



---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :

Hi Ole, I'm surprised that are transformers for 24V forklift chargers, these devices were not cheap. On the one transformer was a nameplate. The transformers are pulse-proof and can deliver 40A at 25.2 volts.

What struck me then when I abused one as a choke that they were eventually warm.

Too little iron for the large winding with large cross-section, I have to understand that!?!

I still have a microwave transformer here, which really has a very bad degree of efficiency at 230 volts, which takes up no load 4390 mA and at 100 volts, the power consumption is twice as high as the other. On the microwave transformer stands for 1100VA although he is much smaller. I just noticed that the MOT has a small magnetic shunt, but does this have any advantages to work as a transformer except that it may not overload it so quickly.

regards

Sven
 
Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Januar 2018 um 18:58 Uhr
Von: "onielsen@... [EVGRAY]" <[email protected]>
An: [email protected]
Betreff: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Aw: Re: AW: [EVGRAY] Re: Kone & Hector, you guys finally did it!
 
Hi Sven,

My guess is that the transformers are made for being cheap. If made for microwave ovens they are only used intermittently at full power thus no problem. For continuous standby use they may be energy consumers if having too much resistance that dissipates the power as heat (active power) or Watts. If the power is pure reactive (VA-reactive) across only some few Ohms of resistance no problem too as very little heat dissipation takes place then. But it does look like some saturation is happening.

Regards
Ole



---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :
 
Hello Ole,

the differences between the voltages are very different as far as the current consumption is concerned. Actually, one should assume that the transformers should actually behave fairly evenly, at least linearly, the current should increase with increasing voltage. What I particularly noticed is that a transformer is a bit louder than the other or just has a different pitch.

How to tune a transformer so!?! I could imagine that it is synonymous s.der core but there I have no influence on it.

regards

Sven

Hi Sven,

Based on your measurements here are some calculations:



The theory behind it is here:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/ac-inductance.html https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/ac-inductance.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometry

Regards
Ole

 

---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :

 

 Hi Ole, I just could do a simple little power measurement. Both transformers take up 32 to 33 watts active power at 230V operating voltage. the PF is 0.27 to 0.28 for both transformers. Greetings Sven
 

 Von Samsung Mobile gesendet



-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: "onielsen@... [EVGRAY]" 
Datum:26.01.2018 20:51 (GMT+01:00) 
An: [email protected] 
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Re: AW: [EVGRAY] Re: Kone & Hector, you guys finally did it! 

   Hi Sven,

When you say abused is the insulation all right? If a transformer has a short in a winding this heats the transformer and is seen as active load. Perhaps a scope reading of the voltage and current is needed to see if the load is active or reactive. At no load the voltage and current ought to be shifted by 90 degrees. If putting the readings in x-y mode the display should show a non-tilted ellipse for reactive power. Any tilt is caused by resistance and is active (real) power.

When active power is taken from a transformer the inductance of the primary is reduced by the canceling flux from the secondary.

Regards
Ole

 

---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :

 Hi Ole, I'm surprised that are transformers for 24V forklift chargers, these devices were not cheap. On the one transformer was a nameplate. The transformers are pulse-proof and can deliver 40A at 25.2 volts.
 
 What struck me then when I abused one as a choke that they were eventually warm.
 
 Too little iron for the large winding with large cross-section, I have to understand that!?!
 
 I still have a microwave transformer here, which really has a very bad degree of efficiency at 230 volts, which takes up no load 4390 mA and at 100 volts, the power consumption is twice as high as the other. On the microwave transformer stands for 1100VA although he is much smaller. I just noticed that the MOT has a small magnetic shunt, but does this have any advantages to work as a transformer except that it may not overload it so quickly.
 
 regards
 
 Sven   Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Januar 2018 um 18:58 Uhr
 Von: "onielsen@... [EVGRAY]" <[email protected]>
 An: [email protected]
 Betreff: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Aw: Re: AW: [EVGRAY] Re: Kone & Hector, you guys finally did it!
   Hi Sven,
 
 My guess is that the transformers are made for being cheap. If made for microwave ovens they are only used intermittently at full power thus no problem. For continuous standby use they may be energy consumers if having too much resistance that dissipates the power as heat (active power) or Watts. If the power is pure reactive (VA-reactive) across only some few Ohms of resistance no problem too as very little heat dissipation takes place then. But it does look like some saturation is happening.
 
 Regards
 Ole
 
 
 ---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :
   Hello Ole,
 
 the differences between the voltages are very different as far as the current consumption is concerned. Actually, one should assume that the transformers should actually behave fairly evenly, at least linearly, the current should increase with increasing voltage. What I particularly noticed is that a transformer is a bit louder than the other or just has a different pitch.
 
 How to tune a transformer so!?! I could imagine that it is synonymous s.der core but there I have no influence on it.
 
 regards
 
 Sven

Hello Ole,

Thank you for working with the formulas and the calculation. But as you can see again the cheap meter is no good. 1,368 H are a very different value like 250mH. I have now tuned both transformers over the 250mH value. Personally, I find 1.368H quite high, but maybe that's normal for a 1 kVA transformer that can transform to 24V and deliver a high current.

Is there also a way to measure capacitors in a simple way and calculate the rest. My 3 capacity meter has now given up and I'm not to blame, it will only show confused values. That's to the mouse milking.

I've already seriously considered using Variacs as adjustable reactors.

regards

Sven

Hi Sven,

I just did some inductance measurements on some different mains transformers. They ranged from 1.2H to 14H. That gives reactances ranging from 377 Ohm to 4.4kOhm at 50Hz. The high inductance ones have less no load current. A microwave oven transformer was among the low inductance ones. Just remember that the inductance is canceled by the field generated by the secondary when at full load. At full load the phase shift is also canceled because of that same reason.

"Is there also a way to measure capacitors in a simple way and calculate the rest. My 3 capacity meter has now given up and I'm not to blame, it will only show confused values."
Capacitance can be calculated almost the same way by knowing some of the parameters of the circuit and solving for the unknown ones. The capacitive reactance just has the current leading the voltage which is directly opposite to the inductive reactance: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/ac-capacitance.html https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/ac-capacitance.html.
This makes the reactance negative in value.

For the capacitance meter just check if the fuse is blown. The fuse blows if measuring on a capacitor that isn't fully discharged.

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :

 Hello Ole,

Thank you for working with the formulas and the calculation. But as you can see again the cheap meter is no good. 1,368 H are a very different value like 250mH. I have now tuned both transformers over the 250mH value. Personally, I find 1.368H quite high, but maybe that's normal for a 1 kVA transformer that can transform to 24V and deliver a high current.

Is there also a way to measure capacitors in a simple way and calculate the rest. My 3 capacity meter has now given up and I'm not to blame, it will only show confused values. That's to the mouse milking.

I've already seriously considered using Variacs as adjustable reactors.

regards

Sven

Hello Ole,

Thank you for working with the formulas and the calculation. But as you can see again the cheap meter is no good. 1,368 H are a very different value like 250mH. I have now tuned both transformers over the 250mH value. Personally, I find 1.368H quite high, but maybe that's normal for a 1 kVA transformer that can transform to 24V and deliver a high current.

Is there also a way to measure capacitors in a simple way and calculate the rest. My 3 capacity meter has now given up and I'm not to blame, it will only show confused values. That's to the mouse milking.

I've already seriously considered using Variacs as adjustable reactors.

regards

Sven

Hi Sven,

Here are some calculations based on your measurements:



The theory behind the calculations:
https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/ac-inductance.html https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/ac-inductance.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigonometry
 
Regards
Ole

---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :

 

 Hi Ole, I just could do a simple little power measurement. Both transformers take up 32 to 33 watts active power at 230V operating voltage. the PF is 0.27 to 0.28 for both transformers. Greetings Sven
 

 Von Samsung Mobile gesendet



-------- Ursprüngliche Nachricht --------
Von: "onielsen@... [EVGRAY]" 
Datum:26.01.2018 20:51 (GMT+01:00) 
An: [email protected] 
Betreff: Re: Aw: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Re: AW: [EVGRAY] Re: Kone & Hector, you guys finally did it! 

   Hi Sven,

When you say abused is the insulation all right? If a transformer has a short in a winding this heats the transformer and is seen as active load. Perhaps a scope reading of the voltage and current is needed to see if the load is active or reactive. At no load the voltage and current ought to be shifted by 90 degrees. If putting the readings in x-y mode the display should show a non-tilted ellipse for reactive power. Any tilt is caused by resistance and is active (real) power.

When active power is taken from a transformer the inductance of the primary is reduced by the canceling flux from the secondary.

Regards
Ole

 

---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :

 Hi Ole, I'm surprised that are transformers for 24V forklift chargers, these devices were not cheap. On the one transformer was a nameplate. The transformers are pulse-proof and can deliver 40A at 25.2 volts.
 
 What struck me then when I abused one as a choke that they were eventually warm.
 
 Too little iron for the large winding with large cross-section, I have to understand that!?!
 
 I still have a microwave transformer here, which really has a very bad degree of efficiency at 230 volts, which takes up no load 4390 mA and at 100 volts, the power consumption is twice as high as the other. On the microwave transformer stands for 1100VA although he is much smaller. I just noticed that the MOT has a small magnetic shunt, but does this have any advantages to work as a transformer except that it may not overload it so quickly.
 
 regards
 
 Sven   Gesendet: Freitag, 26. Januar 2018 um 18:58 Uhr
 Von: "onielsen@... [EVGRAY]" <[email protected]>
 An: [email protected]
 Betreff: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: AW: Re: Aw: Re: AW: [EVGRAY] Re: Kone & Hector, you guys finally did it!
   Hi Sven,
 
 My guess is that the transformers are made for being cheap. If made for microwave ovens they are only used intermittently at full power thus no problem. For continuous standby use they may be energy consumers if having too much resistance that dissipates the power as heat (active power) or Watts. If the power is pure reactive (VA-reactive) across only some few Ohms of resistance no problem too as very little heat dissipation takes place then. But it does look like some saturation is happening.
 
 Regards
 Ole
 
 
 ---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :
   Hello Ole,
 
 the differences between the voltages are very different as far as the current consumption is concerned. Actually, one should assume that the transformers should actually behave fairly evenly, at least linearly, the current should increase with increasing voltage. What I particularly noticed is that a transformer is a bit louder than the other or just has a different pitch.
 
 How to tune a transformer so!?! I could imagine that it is synonymous s.der core but there I have no influence on it.
 
 regards
 
 Sven

Hello Ole,

I have now measured the current for the capacitors. Capacitor connected to a Variac with a Fluke multimeter in milliamps in series and a Fluke clamp meter as a voltmeter. The old analog display of the Variac was more accurate than the socket meter I just connected. About voltage and current I calculated the resistance.

There is an online calculator for the capacitive reactance or converter of reactance to capacity.

That's really very accurate and 3 digits behind the comma,

www.electronicdeveloper.de> LC resonant circuit

I can not reach the page at the moment I have to automate the calculations in Excel.

I now have 14x 15μF capacitors with only 2 equal values, otherwise they are all different and have a deviation of 0.2 to 0.8 μF of course 3 digits behind the comma. Now comes the big dice to get as much as possible capacities for the diode plug capacitors and the coupling capacitors where I think that it is particularly important because they rotate the energy transfer by 180 degrees phase typical and that should always be exactly the same for both polarities. I think you differences in the components arises only the additional active power that we or I do not want.

regards


Sven

Raising Q makes  the center  spike narrowbanded to compensate its drift within the firing zone energy transfer to load ,,,, extracting energy within a shorter cycle of the capture one .... 


as told before , one frequency to exite & saturate core one frequency to extract on its collapse .  

(H)

Hello Hector,

It is really difficult to get two identical reactors or transformers or inductors and to adapt them with single turns.

I'm going now another way and install Variacs as Adjustable Reactors. I have one of the 2500VA here and that can be set from 0 to 250 volts. The transformers are very effective as they have low line resistance and high inrush current. I think they are optimal to work as a reactor. So you can adjust the impedance optimally to the capacitor.
Do you have a scope picture of how the discharge should look like?
If I have the 2 transformer I will make a video and show how the curve changes on the scope.

I have now experimented with a digit transformer to test how everything is about and I think that this is promising. The voltage increased in the capacitor to over 1 KV. With a transformer, of course, I get no symmetry out. With 2 position transformers you can then fine tune during operation.

regards

Sven

Hello Hector,

It is really difficult to get two identical reactors or transformers or inductors and to adapt them with single turns.

I'm going now another way and install Variacs as Adjustable Reactors. I have one of the 2500VA here and that can be set from 0 to 250 volts. The transformers are very effective as they have low line resistance and high inrush current. I think they are optimal to work as a reactor. So you can adjust the impedance optimally to the capacitor.
Do you have a scope picture of how the discharge should look like?
If I have the 2 transformer I will make a video and show how the curve changes on the scope.

I have now experimented with a digit transformer to test how everything is about and I think that this is promising. The voltage increased in the capacitor to over 1 KV. With a transformer, of course, I get no symmetry out. With 2 position transformers you can then fine tune during operation.

regards

Sven

The timing is the key as not to go off cycle from the sequence of events ...

and sorry got no pics on that  to post ..

(H) 
 
---In [email protected], <s.friedrich@...> wrote :

 Hello Hector,

It is really difficult to get two identical reactors or transformers or inductors and to adapt them with single turns.

I'm going now another way and install Variacs as Adjustable Reactors. I have one of the 2500VA here and that can be set from 0 to 250 volts. The transformers are very effective as they have low line resistance and high inrush current. I think they are optimal to work as a reactor. So you can adjust the impedance optimally to the capacitor.
Do you have a scope picture of how the discharge should look like?
If I have the 2 transformer I will make a video and show how the curve changes on the scope.

I have now experimented with a digit transformer to test how everything is about and I think that this is promising. The voltage increased in the capacitor to over 1 KV. With a transformer, of course, I get no symmetry out. With 2 position transformers you can then fine tune during operation.

regards

Sven