HV. Lexan electret question

Hello to all in this new year.
 

 I have followed this guide to build a flyback river:
 

 http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/high-voltage/mazilli-zvs-flyback-driver/ http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/high-voltage/mazilli-zvs-flyback-driver/
  
 It works quite well and spark is quite impressing, specially if you increase voltage more then 12V.
 

 Now I want to move on using this for testing/creating electrets. 
 

 Question is for people with HV experience. 
 

 Should I have a spark-gap when I apply HV to terminals? I see that if I don't have a spark-gap circuit is not consuming DC current so I suppose its not quite working, so my position is to apply HV in paralel with a spark gap.
 

 

 Please let me know of your experience with this.
 

 Thanks.
 

 Alex.

Hi Alex,

For making electrets a polarized voltage is needed. This requires a high voltage (HV) rectifier (diode) in series with the HV output terminals and the electret.

A spark gap just short out the voltage each time it ignites. This is not good for making an electret. Current only run during charging of the electret. After being charged only some small leak current may be running. Leak current isn't good in any capacitor or electret.

Regards
Ole


 

---In [email protected], <bugaian@...> wrote :

 Hello to all in this new year.
 

 I have followed this guide to build a flyback river:
 

 http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/high-voltage/mazilli-zvs-flyback-driver/ http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/high-voltage/mazilli-zvs-flyback-driver/
  
 It works quite well and spark is quite impressing, specially if you increase voltage more then 12V.
 

 Now I want to move on using this for testing/creating electrets. 
 

 Question is for people with HV experience. 
 

 Should I have a spark-gap when I apply HV to terminals? I see that if I don't have a spark-gap circuit is not consuming DC current so I suppose its not quite working, so my position is to apply HV in paralel with a spark gap.
 

 

 Please let me know of your experience with this.
 

 Thanks.
 

 Alex.

Try both .the heart of research.

On Jan 18, 2018 6:36 AM, "[email protected] [EVGRAY]" <
[email protected]> wrote:

>
>
> Hi Alex,
>
> For making electrets a polarized voltage is needed. This requires a high
> voltage (HV) rectifier (diode) in series with the HV output terminals and
> the electret.
>
> A spark gap just short out the voltage each time it ignites. This is not
> good for making an electret. Current only run during charging of the
> electret. After being charged only some small leak current may be running.
> Leak current isn't good in any capacitor or electret.
>
> Regards
> Ole
>
>
>
>
> ---In [email protected], <bugaian@...> wrote :
>
> Hello to all in this new year.
>
>
> I have followed this guide to build a flyback river:
>
>
> http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/high-voltage/mazilli-zvs-flyback-driver/
>
>
>
> It works quite well and spark is quite impressing, specially if you
> increase voltage more then 12V.
>
>
> Now I want to move on using this for testing/creating electrets.
>
>
> Question is for people with HV experience.
>
>
> Should I have a spark-gap when I apply HV to terminals? I see that if I
> don't have a spark-gap circuit is not consuming DC current so I suppose its
> not quite working, so my position is to apply HV in paralel with a spark
> gap.
>
>
>
> Please let me know of your experience with this.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> Alex.
> 
>

Hi Vitalie
 Thanks for the link to the Kaizer electronics website, it is very good, some great projects and I noticed people asking questions when they build something get their questions answered very professionally too....there are lots and lots of projects easy to read very good thanks...
 As for electrets, "I think" you should have 14KV DC or so, apply to some sort of electret material while it is very hot for I do not know how long of time for sure, then let it cool the charge should stay indefinite but I don't know this is just what I have read here as I have never attempted electrets....Hopefully Hector can help you with it......
 ciao
 Konehead

Hi Ole, 

 thanks for your suggestion. I have a couple of PRHVP-16 so do I connect one in series of +(positive) and one in series with -(negative) and then to electret? Is that what you mean or only one to +(positive) terminal is sufficient? I have seen last setup in some schematics.
 

 Thanks.
 

 Alex.
 

---In [email protected], <onielsen@...> wrote :

 Hi Alex,



 

 For making electrets a polarized voltage is needed. This requires a high voltage (HV) rectifier (diode) in series with the HV output terminals and the electret.

A spark gap just short out the voltage each time it ignites. This is not good for making an electret. Current only run during charging of the electret. After being charged only some small leak current may be running. Leak current isn't good in any capacitor or electret.

Regards
Ole


 

---In [email protected], <bugaian@...> wrote :

 Hello to all in this new year.
 

 I have followed this guide to build a flyback river:
 

 http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/high-voltage/mazilli-zvs-flyback-driver/ http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/high-voltage/mazilli-zvs-flyback-driver/
  
 It works quite well and spark is quite impressing, specially if you increase voltage more then 12V.
 

 Now I want to move on using this for testing/creating electrets. 
 

 Question is for people with HV experience. 
 

 Should I have a spark-gap when I apply HV to terminals? I see that if I don't have a spark-gap circuit is not consuming DC current so I suppose its not quite working, so my position is to apply HV in paralel with a spark gap.
 

 

 Please let me know of your experience with this.
 

 Thanks.
 

 Alex.

Hi Alex,

It doesn't matter where the diode is placed in the loop as it is the same current passing through all the components when in series. Only one diode is needed or four if full wave rectification is wanted. Your diode can withstand 16kV. Just stay below that voltage. If putting two diodes in series there's no guarantee that the reverse voltage across the two diodes will stay the same. Thus they'll have to be derated with regard to the reverse voltage across them. If one breaks down into an avalanche the other one gets the full voltage and thus will go into avalanche too making both diodes act like a short (solid state spark gap).

I have made electrets by heating PVC plastic then applied voltage across it and let it cool down. The voltage has to be applied until the dielectric is hardened. Else the charge dipoles won't stay locked in just one direction (along the electric field).

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <bugaian@...> wrote :

 Hi Ole, 

 thanks for your suggestion. I have a couple of PRHVP-16 so do I connect one in series of +(positive) and one in series with -(negative) and then to electret? Is that what you mean or only one to +(positive) terminal is sufficient? I have seen last setup in some schematics.
 

 Thanks.
 

 Alex.
 

---In [email protected], <onielsen@...> wrote :

 Hi Alex,



 

 For making electrets a polarized voltage is needed. This requires a high voltage (HV) rectifier (diode) in series with the HV output terminals and the electret.

A spark gap just short out the voltage each time it ignites. This is not good for making an electret. Current only run during charging of the electret. After being charged only some small leak current may be running. Leak current isn't good in any capacitor or electret.

Regards
Ole


 

---In [email protected], <bugaian@...> wrote :

 Hello to all in this new year.
 

 I have followed this guide to build a flyback river:
 

 http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/high-voltage/mazilli-zvs-flyback-driver/ http://kaizerpowerelectronics.dk/high-voltage/mazilli-zvs-flyback-driver/
  
 It works quite well and spark is quite impressing, specially if you increase voltage more then 12V.
 

 Now I want to move on using this for testing/creating electrets. 
 

 Question is for people with HV experience. 
 

 Should I have a spark-gap when I apply HV to terminals? I see that if I don't have a spark-gap circuit is not consuming DC current so I suppose its not quite working, so my position is to apply HV in paralel with a spark gap.
 

 

 Please let me know of your experience with this.
 

 Thanks.
 

 Alex.

Hi VitalieI have tried making electrets
It is very important to have a dust free space.In my case there was a trace of aluminium dust from a metal polishing machine contaminating the air.This does not allow electrets to be made as the dielectric nature of the wax is ruined.I also, only used a 10,000 volt dc source.Perhaps, as Doug suggests, it should have been greater, but the dust was a deal breaker in any case.Cheers Warren
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 1:56 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:       


Hi Vitalie

Thanks for the link to the Kaizer electronics website, it is very good, some great projects and I noticed people asking questions when they build something get their questions answered very professionally too....there are lots and lots of projects easy to read very good thanks...

As for electrets, "I think" you should have 14KV DC or so, apply to some sort of electret material while it is very hot for I do not know how long of time for sure, then let it cool the charge should stay indefinite but I don't know this is just what I have read here as I have never attempted electrets....Hopefully Hector can help you with it......

ciao

Konehead

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It is also important that there's no air between the electrodes and the electret as air has a very low dielectric constant. If a dielectric with a lower dielectric constant is put in series (stacked) with a dielectric layer having a higher dielectric constant more of the electric tension (voltage) is distributed to the layer having the less dielectric constant.

Instead of using extremely high tension the electret can be made of thinner layers of less voltage and then stacked afterwards for achieving a higher tension. This is like stacking permanent magnets to increase the magnetomotive force. If the voltage flashes through the dielectric the dielectric must be made thicker or alternatively the voltage must be decreased.

Regards
Ole
 

---In [email protected], <schoonersolsticemoon@...> wrote :

 Hi Vitalie I have tried making electrets
It is very important to have a dust free space.
 In my case there was a trace of aluminium dust from a metal polishing machine contaminating the air.
 This does not allow electrets to be made as the dielectric nature of the wax is ruined.
 I also, only used a 10,000 volt dc source.
 Perhaps, as Doug suggests, it should have been greater, but the dust was a deal breaker in any case.
 Cheers Warren
 Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android
 
 On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 1:56 PM, konehead@... [EVGRAY]
 <[email protected]> wrote:

   
 Hi Vitalie
 Thanks for the link to the Kaizer electronics website, it is very good, some great projects and I noticed people asking questions when they build something get their questions answered very professionally too....there are lots and lots of projects easy to read very good thanks...
 As for electrets, "I think" you should have 14KV DC or so, apply to some sort of electret material while it is very hot for I do not know how long of time for sure, then let it cool the charge should stay indefinite but I don't know this is just what I have read here as I have never attempted electrets....Hopefully Hector can help you with it......
 ciao
 Konehead