Body
NormanHaving a ton of RV motors can't be a bad thing unless you have to move.Three phase motors used to be
useless pieces of junk to me for decades, until I needed one to experiment with doing Hector's RV.One could have them at scrap yards for pennies a pound, as no contractors had three phase in their little shops. Only factory stuff used three phase.Then all of a sudden China would buy all, at good prices, ASAP You can't find them as easily now as in the eighties.Those switches arcing need perhaps to be liquid mercury, or something? Curious.Cheers Warren
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On Fri, 23 Nov 2018 at 9:10 AM, Norman Wootan [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:
Ole & Warren, I did extensive testing on the GUNNING PRINCIPLE which Hector and I discussed here on the forum back several years ago. For me it started with the Ferroresonance phenomenon which I had envisioned a way to purposely bypass all the mitigating steps to prevent the phenomenon to setting up a circuit to exploit the Ferroresonant event and figure out a way to capture energy. Thus my folder on EVGRAY TWO, Ferroresonance Capture. In the ferroresonant phenomenon, unbalanced conditions trip the circuit into self targeting resonant conditions (non linear) which causes voltages to be multiplied by 10X and currents likewise. As warren said, make it happen in a sustained mode and siphon off and use this energy. Problem here is mains are supplying the energy which gets around safety breakers and disconnects. Pick up any 20amp thermo-magnetic breaker and see on the side of it that the instantaneous rating is 10KA (10,000 amps). My experiments with the big 5HP setup was to take the line supply out of the conserved energy equation and get the amplified Neutral Spike (EMP). My small ceiling fan experiments were done with 18ga. zip cord line input with all wiring, (hook up) over 18 ga. wire. Motor windings, both run and shading windings were 22 ga. magnet wire. The last destructive test, totally exploded a reversing contactor that by parallel wiring of contacts gave a 120 amp capability. the contator was totally destroyed. I still think that all of this goes back to the Anti-parallel magnetic flux annihilation-reconnect phenomenon which produces an EMP event just the same as I experienced in all my test. Thanks Ole for your excellent document on the reversal GUNNING charts. From my experiments, I do not accept this conventional explanation as the bottom line. Sorry, for there is more to the story. Additional notes here in the area of big RV experimentation, I sold my 40 HP Marathon RV to Luther down in Houston after experiencing magnetic lockup when clip leading in different cap values. Highly dangerous with such high rotating mass.
I literally had a TON of RV 3 phase motors to play with.
On 11/22/2018 11:40 PM, Warren Keillor [email protected] [EVGRAY] wrote:
Ole
That is very interesting. 20 times the running current by reversing! Can a machine be devised to exploit this current? Let us consider how to conceive a motor that gets to speed, and then reverses, capturing all that current, then runs the other direction to hit full speed, then reverses. Somehow, I am sure someone must have tried this, faced with some motor drive of something. I had to build a full sized aluminium man who could break dance to music for an artist. I was supplied the servos by the artist who was an early pioneer of machine programming, and had matched his very expensive, at that time, permanent magnet chopper driven servos, to his prototype driver boards. I looked at the weenie shafts, and said "no way can these handle the torque, splined or not" Sure enough they didn't even lift the honey comb aluminium arm, the motor shearing off its own shaft, with tremendous torque, that that little motor in chopper mode produced. I know it is not the same phenomena you are pointing out, it is really about the positive aspect of a very unpleasant mechanical event, we often would rather forget than exploit as a discovery, and make use of. 20 times the current indeed! Lets take it and use it. Cheers Warren
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On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 at 8:55 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY] <[email protected]> wrote:
I just found an article about stopping a motor by reversing it while running. It's called plugging. Below are two figures from the article where one is showing the speed and braking torque and the other one is shoving the current. Here is the article: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/reversing-3-phase-motor-stop-149599/. Look at the currents. The switch contact points have to carry perhaps 20 times the running current. If they don't have low resistance they're welded or vaporized as the dissipated power is proportional to the current squared. Thus if the current is 20 times greater than normal the power dissipation is 400 times greater than normal. If the contacts bounce the formed plasma may dissipate even more power as the resistance becomes greater while the current stays the same.
Regards
Ole
---In [email protected], <canowindracd@...> wrote :
Norm,
Very good info about the EMP. I've had quite a few experiences with it over the years. The last one was with a refrigeration unit being installed by other contractors in a supermarket food store and it blew up the lightning protection unit in the main Switchboard. We got the blame and we could not convince the owner otherwise and he didn't want to pay for our work of installing the lightning protection unit. Most times it has happened in my experiences has been associated with refrigeration and air conditioning systems. I did see something unusual with large motors in an off mode turning backwards in a brick-works when the metal detector stopped the motors of the feeding conveyors into the pan mixer. You do see some weird things sometimes and you go away scratching your head.
George
On Wednesday, 21 November 2018, 3:21:33 am AEDT, Norman Wootan nwootan@... [EVGRAY] <[email protected]> wrote:
Mick! I am getting just like Hector here by having to explain something over and over! I guess short memory is the cause for lack of understanding the whole project. First you have to go back to the 1981 ceiling fan, 1/6th HP capacitor run shaded pole motor problem. A wiring error by a Chinese assembly worker incorrectly wired the capacitor reversing switch into the neutral side of the circuit which provided a total isolation of charge while the switch was in transition from forward operation to reverse operation. Reversing switch would explode. This was my first encounter with the phenomenon which I researched and determined that it was a Magneto-Electric effect or better put, Magnetic flux annihilation-reconnect as we now know it. In Physics we have always been taught that energy cannot be destroyed but can change forms as we clearly see by simple experiment. With this knowledge tucked back in the memory bank, I had the occasion to encounter this phenomenon again in around 1984. A wealthy widow had remodeled her expansive Highland Park home (Dallas) and I had installed a projection TV system into her den. MS. Sharp called and said she had a Poltergeist in her den. When I arrived she served tea and told me to sit there and wait a few minutes. The TV screen and projector both started descending from the ceiling then reversed and went back up. Both these motors were shaded pole, capacitor run design so that switching via wall switch could reverse operation, either up or down against limit switches. Here is the Somfy motor example so you understand how they operate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMHEJ2iIu14&feature=youtu.be When I went into attic to examine the motorized units the phenomenon occurred again. Sure enough the screen and projector descended half way down then reversed and retracted. Over my head was a powered turbo ventilator attic fan of shaded pole design which took off ZIIIIINNNNG , super fast acceleration up to a speed about 10X design speed but one big problem was that it took off backwards! The turbine took several minutes to coast down to a stop. A visit downstairs found that a small appliance like a counter top blender in the kitchen (shaded pole motor) would take off spinning backwards then stop. The only connection that all these motor had when sitting in a turned off state was a connection to the neutral buss. Interesting fact was that with the very small size motor windings and sudden fantastic acceleration up to very high speed (backwards) did no damage to the motors. I did an inspection to the mains breakers and house wiring including the service cabelling and earth ground at the mains panel. All was up to Dallas Code. While walking in side yard, I found a brand new installation of a 5 ton A/C Condensing unit. in addition to the older 5 ton unit. Both units were earth bonded via the Required (Highland Park Code) 10 ft. ground rod at the units. Both units were 5 Ton, 230VAC single phase. While I was looking at the A/C units , the new one tried to start against a locked rotor condition. From contactor closure to WHUUUUUMP, EMP shot which you could feel the brissance in the ground took about 1/2 second. This was the source of the EMP event which caused the neutral buss to carry this very unusual form of energy. The A/C guys came out and replaced the compressor and rectified the situation but I came away with a better understanding a very common phenomenon that most do not take time to fully understand nor appreciate the implications. By studing the ongoing research of the natural occurrence of this EMP phenomenon from Solar magnetic storms Magnetic Annihilation -Reconnect which have been duplicated in Labs gathering better understanding of phenomenon. I elected to bench top duplicate the situation which I had observed back in 1984 at the Sharp residence. Since I was doing HVAC, Electrical and Electronics Contracting, I had many compressors at my disposal just like the one in the Carrier A/C unit. By hydraulic locking the compressor via filling with oil and pinching off the suction and discharge lines you have a fully locked up sealed unit See:
This unit utilizes a 40mfd start cap and a 5mfd run cap controlled by current relay. When energized via 2 pole,230VAC, starter contactor, both the start and run windings are energized. When the Over current relay senses the locked rotor current of 84 amps ( motor in magnetic saturation) the circuit is opened leaving the stored energy in total isolation with no ground reference. A NECESSARY CONDITION TO GET THE MAGNETIC FLUXANNIHILATION-Re-CONNECT PHENOMENON or EMP. This experiment is something anyone can duplicate and observe the phenomenon for yourself. The reversible ceiling fan is the simplest and easiest and less expensive to replicate. Most current available reversible fans utilize the electrical capacitor relocation via toggle switch to reverse rotation. All you have to do is open up circuit and re-wire the cap so that you have a momentary loss of ground reference (neutral) while the reversing switch is in transit. Reverse it several times and you will explode switch! Now Mick, what do you not understand?? I was just too curious to let this go by without finding an answer. Just remember the Axiom, Energy cannot be destroyed but it can change forms.
On 11/19/2018 10:04 AM, Mick mkjekyll@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
Norm,
So why did you first notice this even at a clients, shorted start cap or seized bearing? Interesting I have noticed a ground rod near pool equipment with GFI but rarely have seen or can recall one next to a heat pump or AC unit and 10 feet ground rod damn that's deeper than a dirt nap. At 60hz the capacitive coupling is negligible.
Unless I am misunderstanding something the L1-L2 at the supply side... coupling to earth would still be at the transformer to center tap neutral back at the pole then the neutral is ground bonded at the service. Since it is on the sink side of the transformer from the utility there is a direct path to ground through a certainimpedance,reactance and reluctance whatever importance that plays into the event.
On 11/19/2018 4:44 AM, Norman Wootan nwootan@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
Locked means exactly what the term expresses! No rotor motion relative to stator! On the early 5 Ton A/C units they were service wired with a 3 conductor wip from service disconnect to A/C unit! You had L-1 & L-2 230VAC (hots) and a green earth bonding wire to motor and chasis frame. In addition, you had a10 ft. ground stake into earth ground to bond this outdoor installation for safety reasons. When over-current relay (84 amps) drops out starter contactor there is NO GROUND PATH to discipate the charge, both magbetic flux sayuration (Inductive power) and the two charged capacitors in the circuit. This energy is in an isolated state due to insulation in the motor windings and capacitors. Ole will jump in here and say there is capacitive coupling between motor frame and isolated capacitance and magnetic flux at saturation. I built and did the test on this phenomenon after I saw it in real life in a clients back yard. Easy to duplicate! The reversible ceiling fan trick can be done by anyone by just changing the wiring on the reversing capacitor in-order to float neutral while the reversing switch is in transition. Simple! ( BOOM)!!
On 11/18/2018 11:15 AM, Mick mkjekyll@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
Norm,
How did you run the motor in locked mode, by preventing the start cap from energizing?
When you experimented with the energy from this motor where did you extract the differential, from the green wire running back to the service panel or another grounding rod and from the motor frame where the ground bonding clip usually is or somewhere else?
Assuming frame on your dual winding induction motor was isolated sink side from the stator windings by their insulation as you mentioned earlier there was no neutral and on the source side by the center tap in the pole pig?
Not sure why I was thinking locked was synchronous mode as we discussed earlier the concept of Mag Transmitter is to saturate the core and release, or as Hector likes to say switch off to turn on. Some major issues going on here, head on backwards.
So impedance does opposite of a LC tank and dropped like a series LC hmmm...
Thanks,
Mick
On 11/18/2018 3:44 AM, Norman Wootan nwootan@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
Thanks! Ole for the explanation! Rotation is required inorder for counter emf to be generated. In stalled rotor or locked rotor conditions, the current through the windings is only limited by R = resitance. My dual winding 5 HP motor in locked rotor had a combined current draw of 84 amps @ 230VAC input. When you look at the BH curve on a scope you see the magnetic flux build to saturation at which point the impedance is = to Zero ( air value) with R being the only limiting factor. (Ole). I used the dual winding motor for it has a starting cap value of 40mfd and a run cap with a value of 5 mfd, both of which are in circuit when current limiting relay drops circuit open yielding the Neutral Spike form ground. Magneto Electric effect. For it to work, the caps and motor windings have to be isolated from neutral and earth ground reference. the iron motor frame is earth bonded. Cancellation of energy in isolation will create an EMP earth ground response. This goes back to Page 25 of CSN by Tesla himself.
On 11/17/2018 5:12 PM, onielsen@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
Locked rotor is when the rotor is prevented from rotating. This is also known as stalled rotor.
Synchronous speed is when the rotor follows the rotating magnetic wave(s) of the stator. In an induction motor (asynchronous motor) this means no power transmission between the rotor and the stator. The motor is then working neither as motor or generator.
Slip is the ratio between the rotor speed and the rotating field speed.
Regards
Ole
---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :
Norm,
I am slowly digesting this but I think my concept of locked rotor was/is in error. Always thought this was when the rotor is locked to the rotational field from stator with least amount of slip, seems like I am reading now it is most amount of slip.
Can you provide what locked rotor means to you and any additional information of what you think may be occurring beyond the everyday accepted definition?
Thanks,
Mick
On 11/16/2018 5:55 AM, Norman Wootan nwootan@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
Mick, Ole, Kone etal! I have been thinking a lot about my Locked Rotor experiments and did a lot of reading to come up with a fool proof Lenz free motor / generator combination which is so easy to build and proof test! First of all you should read what we know as facts! See the following articles:
https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-what-are-dc-shunt-motors-and-where-are-they-used/
http://www.machineryspaces.com/direct-current-motors.html
https://www.quora.com/What-will-happen-if-the-back-EMF-of-a-DC-motor-vanishes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-FPcKgwSzs&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3TFALmHtMw&feature=youtu.be
https://www.researchgate.net/post/A_DC_shunt_motor_is_running_at_light_load_what_happens_if_the_field_winding_gets_opened
Kone loves to play with the very powerful Neos as found at K&G Magnetics and shown in the video of the Ray's LENZ free generator. What I will propose is very simple application of DC motor principles as read from the cited references. First you make your LENZ free motor which is in reality a LINEAR MOTOR (Solenoid) which will give the necessary stroke length to drive the LINEAR generator (Coil oscillating within the drag free, LENZ free area of the Neo magnets). Stroke of the solenoid is controlled by Hall sensor and IGBT drive switch to give an excursion rate (stroke) at a frequency of 60 HZ. By using a DC pulse to drive the solenoid coil it is tricked into being in LOCKED ROTOR condition, thus no LENZ effect. Has the light come on yet?? We know that Ray's generator puts out a sine wave output (AC) with no LENZ drag. Following the DC motor principles as applied to the solenoid driver, you have a motor that is LENZ free also. The combo should give an Over-unity output. Now the tricky part! We know as Ole will agree in that when you switch the solenoid power to off state as magnetic flux is building toward saturation there will be a huge voltage spike (Neutral Spike) which we have to capture and not send to ground as ordinary practice in solid state switch design (snubber diodes) The capture of the SPIKE energy (HV) which occurs naturally will be the over-unity factor here! Interesting concept! Think about it! Norm Mick! (accumulator HV caps)!
On 11/16/2018 6:23 AM, Mick mkjekyll@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
Ole,
I have had caps charge much faster in an LC tank than otherwise, but it could also have to do with noise in the core material as I was no using an air inductor.
On 11/16/2018 1:19 AM, onielsen@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
Hi Mick,
"If a reactive LC tank capacitor is then disconnected from the reactive source then discharged to a resistive load then reconnected energized back to the standing wave modality recharged disconnected discharged etc. If the reactive energy is harvested in this manner are you claiming the same losses will occur as power factor correcting the reactive back into real power?"
Yes that's correct.
Common power factor correction in AC is for eliminating the reactive power that doesn't do any work but just heats the wires between the power plant and the reactive load. This is expensive for the owners of the power transmission lines and thus should be avoided. First storing the energy in a capacitor (or inductor or battery) and then dumping it to an active load will still make the power go in just one direction even though it happens in pulses. The energy is then moving from the source to the load. Reactive power has the energy moving to and from the load and power source. The power moving between the capacitor and inductor in an LC-tank is pure reactive except for the loss because of the parasitic resistance in the components and wires.
Regards
Ole
---In [email protected], <mkjekyll@...> wrote :
Ole,
Disregarding the issue at hand with the patent terminology and not concerning ourselves with the patent just a very high Q tank.
If a reactive LC tank capacitor is then disconnected from the reactive source then discharged to a resistive load then reconnected energized back to the standing wave modality recharged disconnected discharged etc. If the reactive energy is harvested in this manner are you claiming the same losses will occur as power factor correcting the reactive back into real power?
On 11/15/2018 5:36 PM, onielsen@... [EVGRAY] wrote
I have only read to the following paragraph cited below. I wonder if the applicant knows about what he is writing.
Citing paragraph 106 of the patent application (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/53/7d/29/f7b4bd0194992d/US20070296373A1.pdf):
"[0106] There is voltage across the inductor connected in series to the capacitor and there is voltage across the inductor connected in parallel to the capacitor. SincePower=voltage×current, a single power input produces two branches ofelectromagnetic power output, increasing the power output. In the alternative, the present disclosure may have oneelectromagnetic power output with less energy input."
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