Body
OleThat is very interesting. 20 times the running current by reversing!Can a machine be devised to exploit this current?Let us consider how to conceive a motor that gets to speed, and then reverses, capturing all that current, then runs the other direction to hit full speed, then reverses.Somehow, I am sure someone must have tried this, faced with some motor drive of something.I had to build a full sized aluminium man who could break dance to music for an artist. I was supplied the servos by the artist who was an early pioneer of machine programming, and had matched his very expensive, at that time, permanent magnet chopper driven servos, to his prototype driver boards. I looked at the weenie shafts, and said "no way can these handle the torque, splined or not"Sure enough they didn't even lift the honey comb aluminium arm, the motor shearing off its own shaft, with tremendous torque, that that little motor in chopper mode produced.I know it is not the same phenomena you are pointing out, it is really about the positive aspect of a very unpleasant mechanical event, we often would rather forget than exploit as a discovery, and make use of.20 times the current indeed!Lets take it and use it.Cheers Warren
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
On Thu, 22 Nov 2018 at 8:55 PM, [email protected] [EVGRAY]<[email protected]> wrote:
I just found an article about stopping a motor by reversing it while running. It's called plugging. Below are two figures from the article where one is showing the speed and braking torque and the other one is shoving the current. Here is the article: https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/reversing-3-phase-motor-stop-149599/. Look at the currents. The switch contact points have to carry perhaps 20 times the running current. If they don't have low resistance they're welded or vaporized as the dissipated power is proportional to the current squared. Thus if the current is 20 times greater than normal the power dissipation is 400 times greater than normal. If the contacts bounce the formed plasma may dissipate even more power as the resistance becomes greater while the current stays the same.
Regards
Ole
---In [email protected], <canowindracd@...> wrote :
Norm,
Very good info about the EMP. I've had quite a few experiences with it over the years. The last one was with a refrigeration unit being installed by other contractors in a supermarket food store and it blew up the lightning protection unit in the main Switchboard. We got the blame and we could not convince the owner otherwise and he didn't want to pay for our work of installing the lightning protection unit. Most times it has happened in my experiences has been associated with refrigeration and air conditioning systems. I did see something unusual with large motors in an off mode turning backwards in a brick-works when the metal detector stopped the motors of the feeding conveyors into the pan mixer. You do see some weird things sometimes and you go away scratching your head.
George
On Wednesday, 21 November 2018, 3:21:33 am AEDT, Norman Wootan nwootan@... [EVGRAY] <[email protected]> wrote:
Mick! I am getting just like Hector here by having to explainsomething over and over! I guess short memory is the cause forlack of understanding the whole project. First you have to goback to the 1981 ceiling fan, 1/6th HP capacitor run shaded polemotor problem. A wiring error by a Chinese assembly workerincorrectly wired the capacitor reversing switch into the neutralside of the circuit which provided a total isolation of chargewhile the switch was in transition from forward operation toreverse operation. Reversing switch would explode. This was myfirst encounter with the phenomenon which I researched anddetermined that it was a Magneto-Electric effect or better put,Magnetic flux annihilation-reconnect as we now know it. In Physicswe have always been taught that energy cannot be destroyed but canchange forms as we clearly see by simple experiment. With thisknowledge tucked back in the memory bank, I had the occasion toencounter this phenomenon again in around 1984. A wealthy widowhad remodeled her expansive Highland Park home (Dallas) and I hadinstalled a projection TV system into her den. MS. Sharp calledand said she had a Poltergeist in her den. When I arrived sheserved tea and told me to sit there and wait a few minutes. TheTV screen and projector both started descending from the ceilingthen reversed and went back up. Both these motors were shadedpole, capacitor run design so that switching via wall switch couldreverse operation, either up or down against limit switches. Hereis the Somfy motor example so you understand how they operate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMHEJ2iIu14&feature=youtu.be When I went into attic to examine the motorized units thephenomenon occurred again. Sure enough the screen and projectordescended half way down then reversed and retracted. Over my headwas a powered turbo ventilator attic fan of shaded pole designwhich took off ZIIIIINNNNG , super fast acceleration up to a speedabout 10X design speed but one big problem was that it took offbackwards! The turbine took several minutes to coast down to astop. A visit downstairs found that a small appliance like acounter top blender in the kitchen (shaded pole motor) would takeoff spinning backwards then stop. The only connection that allthese motor had when sitting in a turned off state was aconnection to the neutral buss. Interesting fact was that withthe very small size motor windings and sudden fantasticacceleration up to very high speed (backwards) did no damage tothe motors. I did an inspection to the mains breakers and housewiring including the service cabelling and earth ground at themains panel. All was up to Dallas Code. While walking in sideyard, I found a brand new installation of a 5 ton A/C Condensingunit. in addition to the older 5 ton unit. Both units were earthbonded via the Required (Highland Park Code) 10 ft. ground rod atthe units. Both units were 5 Ton, 230VAC single phase. While Iwas looking at the A/C units , the new one tried to start againsta locked rotor condition. From contactor closure to WHUUUUUMP,EMP shot which you could feel the brissance in the ground tookabout 1/2 second. This was the source of the EMP event whichcaused the neutral buss to carry this very unusual form ofenergy. The A/C guys came out and replaced the compressor andrectified the situation but I came away with a betterunderstanding a very common phenomenon that most do not take timeto fully understand nor appreciate the implications. By studingthe ongoing research of the natural occurrence of this EMPphenomenon from Solar magnetic storms Magnetic Annihilation-Reconnect which have been duplicated in Labs gathering betterunderstanding of phenomenon. I elected to bench top duplicate thesituation which I had observed back in 1984 at the Sharpresidence. Since I was doing HVAC, Electrical and ElectronicsContracting, I had many compressors at my disposal just like theone in the Carrier A/C unit. By hydraulic locking thecompressor via filling with oil and pinching off the suction anddischarge lines you have a fully locked up sealed unit See:
This unit utilizes a 40mfd start cap and a 5mfd run capcontrolled by current relay. When energized via 2 pole,230VAC,starter contactor, both the start and run windings are energized.When the Over current relay senses the locked rotor current of 84amps ( motor in magnetic saturation) the circuit is opened leavingthe stored energy in total isolation with no ground reference. ANECESSARY CONDITION TO GET THE MAGNETIC FLUXANNIHILATION-Re-CONNECT PHENOMENON or EMP. This experiment issomething anyone can duplicate and observe the phenomenon foryourself. The reversible ceiling fan is the simplest and easiestand less expensive to replicate. Most current available reversiblefans utilize the electrical capacitor relocation via toggle switchto reverse rotation. All you have to do is open up circuit andre-wire the cap so that you have a momentary loss of groundreference (neutral) while the reversing switch is in transit.Reverse it several times and you will explode switch! Now Mick,what do you not understand?? I was just too curious to let thisgo by without finding an answer. Just remember the Axiom, Energycannot be destroyed but it can change forms.
On 11/19/2018 10:04 AM, Mickmkjekyll@... [EVGRAY] wrote:
Norm,
So why did you first notice this even at a clients,shorted start cap or seized bearing? Interesting Ihave noticed a ground rod near pool equipment with GFI butrarely have seen or can recall one next to a heat pump orAC unit and 10 feet ground rod damn that's deeper than adirt nap. At 60hz the capacitive coupling is negligible.
Unless I am misunderstanding something the L1-L2 at thesupply side... coupling to earth would still be at thetransformer to center tap neutral back at the pole thenthe neutral is ground bonded at the service. Since it ison the sink side of the transformer from the utility thereis a direct path to ground through a certainimpedance,reactance and reluctance whatever importancethat plays into the event.
On 11/19/2018 4:44 AM, NormanWootan nwootan@...[EVGRAY] wrote:
Locked means exactly what the term expresses! Norotor motion relative to stator! On the early 5 TonA/C units they were service wired with a 3 conductorwip from service disconnect to A/C unit! You had L-1& L-2 230VAC (hots) and a green earth bonding wireto motor and chasis frame. In addition, you had a10ft. ground stake into earth ground to bond thisoutdoor installation for safety reasons. Whenover-current relay (84 amps) drops out startercontactor there is NO GROUND PATH to discipate thecharge, both magbetic flux sayuration (Inductivepower) and the two charged capacitors in the circuit. This energy is in an isolated state due to insulationin the motor windings and capacitors. Ole will jumpin here and say there is capacitive coupling betweenmotor frame and isolated capacitance and magnetic fluxat saturation. I built and did the test on thisphenomenon after I saw it in real life in a clientsback yard. Easy to duplicate! The reversible ceilingfan trick can be done by anyone by just changing thewiring on the reversing capacitor in-order to floatneutral while the reversing switch is in transition. Simple! ( BOOM)!!
On 11/18/2018 11:15 AM,Mick mkjekyll@...[EVGRAY] wrote:
Norm,
How did you run the motor in locked mode, bypreventing the start cap from energizing?
When you experimented with the energy from thismotor where did you extract the differential, fromthe green wire running back to the service panelor another grounding rod and from the motor framewhere the ground bonding clip usually is orsomewhere else?
Assuming frame on your dual winding inductionmotor was isolated sink side from the statorwindings by their insulation as you mentionedearlier there was no neutral and on the sourceside by the center tap in the pole pig?
Not sure why I was thinking locked wassynchronous mode as we discussed earlier theconcept of Mag Transmitter is to saturate the coreand release, or as Hector likes to say switch offto turn on. Some major issues going on here, headon backwards.
So impedance does opposite of a LC tank anddropped like a series LC hmmm...
Thanks,
Mick
On 11/18/2018 3:44 AM,Norman Wootan nwootan@...[EVGRAY] wrote:
Thanks! Ole for the explanation! Rotation isrequired inorder for counter emf to begenerated. In stalled rotor or locked rotorconditions, the current through the windingsis only limited by R = resitance. My dualwinding 5 HP motor in locked rotor had acombined current draw of 84 amps @ 230VACinput. When you look at the BH curve on ascope you see the magnetic flux build tosaturation at which point the impedance is =to Zero ( air value) with R being the onlylimiting factor. (Ole). I used the dualwinding motor for it has a starting cap valueof 40mfd and a run cap with a value of 5 mfd,both of which are in circuit when currentlimiting relay drops circuit open yielding theNeutral Spike form ground. Magneto Electriceffect. For it to work, the caps and motorwindings have to be isolated from neutral andearth ground reference. the iron motor frameis earth bonded. Cancellation of energy inisolation will create an EMP earth groundresponse. This goes back to Page 25 of CSN byTesla himself.
On 11/17/2018 5:12PM, onielsen@...[EVGRAY] wrote:
Lockedrotor is when the rotor isprevented from rotating. This is alsoknown as stalledrotor.
Synchronousspeed is when the rotor followsthe rotating magnetic wave(s) of thestator. In an induction motor(asynchronous motor) this means no powertransmission between the rotor and thestator. The motor is then working neitheras motor or generator.
Slipis the ratio between the rotor speed andthe rotating field speed.
Regards
Ole
---In [email protected],<mkjekyll@...>wrote :
Norm,
I am slowly digesting this but I thinkmy concept of locked rotor was/is inerror. Always thought this was when therotor is locked to the rotational fieldfrom stator with least amount of slip,seems like I am reading now it is mostamount of slip.
Can you provide what locked rotor meansto you and any additional information ofwhat you think may be occurring beyondthe everyday accepted definition?
Thanks,
Mick
On11/16/2018 5:55 AM, Norman Wootan nwootan@...[EVGRAY] wrote:
Mick, Ole, Kone etal! I havebeen thinking a lot about myLocked Rotor experiments and dida lot of reading to come up witha fool proof Lenz free motor /generator combination which isso easy to build and proof test!First of all you should readwhat we know as facts! See thefollowing articles:
https://www.motioncontroltips.com/faq-what-are-dc-shunt-motors-and-where-are-they-used/
http://www.machineryspaces.com/direct-current-motors.html
https://www.quora.com/What-will-happen-if-the-back-EMF-of-a-DC-motor-vanishes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-FPcKgwSzs&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3TFALmHtMw&feature=youtu.be
https://www.researchgate.net/post/A_DC_shunt_motor_is_running_at_light_load_what_happens_if_the_field_winding_gets_opened
Kone loves to play with thevery powerful Neos as found atK&G Magnetics and shown inthe video of the Ray's LENZ freegenerator. What I will proposeis very simple application of DCmotor principles as read fromthe cited references. First youmake your LENZ free motor whichis in reality a LINEAR MOTOR(Solenoid) which will give thenecessary stroke length to drivethe LINEAR generator (Coiloscillating within the dragfree, LENZ free area of the Neomagnets). Stroke of thesolenoid is controlled by Hallsensor and IGBT drive switch togive an excursion rate (stroke)at a frequency of 60 HZ. Byusing a DC pulse to drive thesolenoid coil it is tricked intobeing in LOCKED ROTOR condition,thus no LENZ effect. Has thelight come on yet?? We knowthat Ray's generator puts out asine wave output (AC) with noLENZ drag. Following the DCmotor principles as applied tothe solenoid driver, you have amotor that is LENZ free also. The combo should give anOver-unity output. Now thetricky part! We know as Olewill agree in that when youswitch the solenoid power to offstate as magnetic flux isbuilding toward saturation therewill be a huge voltage spike(Neutral Spike) which we have tocapture and not send to groundas ordinary practice in solidstate switch design (snubberdiodes) The capture of theSPIKE energy (HV) which occursnaturally will be the over-unityfactor here! Interestingconcept! Think about it! Norm Mick! (accumulator HVcaps)!
On11/16/2018 6:23 AM, Mick mkjekyll@...[EVGRAY] wrote:
Ole,
I have had caps charge muchfaster in an LC tank thanotherwise, but it could alsohave to do with noise in thecore material as I was nousing an air inductor.
On11/16/2018 1:19 AM, onielsen@...[EVGRAY] wrote:
Hi Mick,
"Ifa reactive LC tankcapacitor is thendisconnected fromthe reactive sourcethen discharged to aresistive load thenreconnectedenergized back tothe standing wavemodality rechargeddisconnecteddischarged etc. Ifthe reactive energyis harvested in thismanner are youclaiming the samelosses will occur aspower factorcorrecting thereactive back intoreal power?"
Yes that's correct.
Common power factorcorrection in AC is foreliminating the reactivepower that doesn't doany work but just heatsthe wires between thepower plant and thereactive load. This isexpensive for the ownersof the powertransmission lines andthus should be avoided.First storing the energyin a capacitor (orinductor or battery) andthen dumping it to anactive load will stillmake the power go injust one direction eventhough it happens inpulses. The energy isthen moving from thesource to the load.Reactive power has theenergy moving to andfrom the load and powersource. The power movingbetween the capacitorand inductor in anLC-tank is pure reactiveexcept for the lossbecause of the parasiticresistance in thecomponents and wires.
Regards
Ole
---In [email protected],<mkjekyll@...>wrote :
Ole,
Disregarding theissue at hand with thepatent terminology andnot concerningourselves with thepatent just a veryhigh Q tank.
If a reactive LC tankcapacitor is thendisconnected from thereactive source thendischarged to aresistive load thenreconnected energizedback to the standingwave modalityrecharged disconnecteddischarged etc. Ifthe reactive energy isharvested in thismanner are youclaiming the samelosses will occur aspower factorcorrecting thereactive back intoreal power?
On11/15/2018 5:36 PM, onielsen@...[EVGRAY] wrote
I have onlyread to thefollowingparagraphcited below. Iwonder if theapplicantknows aboutwhat he iswriting.
Citingparagraph 106of the patentapplication (https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/53/7d/29/f7b4bd0194992d/US20070296373A1.pdf):
"[0106]There isvoltage acrossthe inductorconnected inseries to thecapacitor andthere isvoltage acrossthe inductorconnected inparallel tothe capacitor.SincePower=voltage×current, a single power input produces two branches ofelectromagneticpower output,increasing thepower output.In thealternative,the presentdisclosure mayhave oneelectromagneticpower outputwith lessenergy input."
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